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Old 12-30-2018, 01:27 PM   #21
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Tastes better to whom? ...
To USA customers, of course. Did I need to say that?
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Old 12-30-2018, 02:18 PM   #22
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OK. More ingredients in the USA recipe. Does it taste better? Certainly McDs has tested the UK recipe and found that the USA recipe tastes better. If it didn't, they wouldn't be using it.

Is there some rule that recipes with more ingredients are increasingly evil or unhealthy? Or are you trying to make some other point?
+1.

Crisps (chips) in Europe are much less salty and flavor intense than US version. Many of these differences can be flavor related by region.

BTW, one of the best things most Americans could do is eat grass fed beef and other livestock that is farm raised / heritage breeds. The stuff from Purdue, Swift, Oscar Meyer, et al are genetic freaks. YMMV!
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Old 12-30-2018, 02:51 PM   #23
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Europe economic growth is stunted by massive regulations that aren't proven to stop anything. It's the way bureaucracies increase their self-importance/control of lives & demands for more spending on them.
It doesn't need to be nefarious like that. It's pretty simple to see how differences can come about when people are honestly acting in good faith.

Example: a study comes out showing that Chemical X increases cancer risk in mice, and sees a significant risk that it could be a carcinogen for humans as well, due to the mechanism. One country chooses to ban Chemical X just in case, another chooses to wait and see if more studies confirm the results.

Which country is right? If Chemical X turns out to be a nasty carcinogen, the citizens of the second country are going to be up in arms that their government didn't ban it the second they heard about the first study. If the study isn't confirmed, citizens of the first country are going to be annoyed with the fear-mongering.

Do you choose alpha risk (banning something that turns out to be OK), or beta risk (let your citizens be exposed to a dangerous chemical)? There is no third option, and you never have all the info.
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Old 12-30-2018, 03:05 PM   #24
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OK. More ingredients in the USA recipe. Does it taste better? Certainly McDs has tested the UK recipe and found that the USA recipe tastes better. If it didn't, they wouldn't be using it.

Is there some rule that recipes with more ingredients are increasingly evil or unhealthy? Or are you trying to make some other point?
It's just a data point on a food many of us are familiar with.
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Old 12-30-2018, 06:27 PM   #25
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Those items do not create any concern for me. I'm not going to consume huge amounts of any one thing, and there are far worse things to concern myself with than something that might hurt a rat if they consume 10x their body weight for a year.-ERD50

Ah, the old "moderation in everything" argument (and everything will be fine). Maybe moderate consumption of toxic compunds is okay with you, but personally, I really don't want to consume any amount of this stuff. Maybe I won't be able to avoid it completely, but sticking mostly to whole/real foods certainly should help. Consuming a lot of processed foods anywhere is not a good idea, but at least Europe is making an effort to eliminate some of the worst food additives, and I applaud them for it.
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Old 12-30-2018, 06:46 PM   #26
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Ah, the old "moderation in everything" argument (and everything will be fine). Maybe moderate consumption of toxic compunds is okay with you, but personally, I really don't want to consume any amount of this stuff. Maybe I won't be able to avoid it completely, but sticking mostly to whole/real foods certainly should help. Consuming a lot of processed foods anywhere is not a good idea, but at least Europe is making an effort to eliminate some of the worst food additives, and I applaud them for it.
Well, everything is toxic, it all depends on the dose.

Sure, I'm not saying play with fire, but we do not eat a lot of processed food, we make our meals mostly from scratch. So I'm not gonna get all worked up about 1,000 different things that might harm me if consume them in high amounts, when I only consume them occasionally. There are more important things to worry about. I'm actually more worried about the things organic farmers are allowed to use, simply because they are 'natural'.

"Natural" food contains all sorts of known toxins in far greater doses than this stuff of unknown toxicity. But you don't eat thousands of apple seeds either. Or drink 5 gallons of water a day. So yes, moderation does matter.

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Water is considered one of the least toxic chemical compounds, with an LD50 of over 90 ml/kg in rats.[3]
So an 80 kg / ~ 175 # man could die from ~ 7 liters ( ~ 2 gallons) of water. I bet I drink 1/3rd that amount many days. Dosage matters.

Heck a man can drink a couple 5% alc 12 oz beers a day, and some studies show that to be a positive. But drink 50 of those and you are probably dead. 50x and dead, not the thousands that are talked about with some of these additives in theses studies, that are still inconclusive.

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Old 12-30-2018, 06:49 PM   #27
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Both, pulled from MacDonald's websites, UK and the USA.

Ingredients in MacDonald's fries sold in the UK:

Ingrediants in MacDonalds fries sold in the USA:



Edited to add: They are just data points. Though I admit that I am curious why the USA fries (err... chips) need beef flavor and something to protect the color. Perhaps a difference in the type of potatoes used?


Because they used beef tallow for their fries (look it up) and they want a similar taste Iím guessing.

Many people are concerned about what they eat and some to a crazy extent. We all want food fresh but if itís clean it wonít last long. Pick your poison. Canít have it all.

On the other hand itís nice to challenge the things food companies did years ago. Itís a good trend. I am knowledgeable about the industry and preservation so there are points on either side.

On the other hand itís the NYT. Enough said
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Old 12-30-2018, 07:53 PM   #28
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Ah, the old "moderation in everything" argument (and everything will be fine). Maybe moderate consumption of toxic compunds is okay with you, but personally, I really don't want to consume any amount of this stuff. Maybe I won't be able to avoid it completely, but sticking mostly to whole/real foods certainly should help. Consuming a lot of processed foods anywhere is not a good idea, but at least Europe is making an effort to eliminate some of the worst food additives, and I applaud them for it.
Sorry, but to someone trained as a scientist and engineer this is not much above believing in astrology.

For example, " ... sticking mostly to whole/real foods should help." Really? And what human-based statistical data support this theory?

"Consuming a lot of processed foods anywhere is not a good idea ... " And you have actual human-based statistical data (not mouse experiments) to support this theory?

The way bureaucracies work is that they strive to justify their existence. Once the low-hanging fruits have been dealt with, do they say "We're done here. We think that investigating things that occur at a rate of one part per billion is not cost effective and a waste of time. Further, we think that whatever happens in high-dose mouse experiments cannot be extrapolated to vanishingly small doses in humans. So we think the department should abandon this class of wasteful and misleading studies." I don't think they say that. They want to keep their jobs and he only way to do it is to conduct increasingly irrelevant studies and to keep the taxpayers alarmed enough to keep them providing the funds. So we get alarmist nonsense.
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Food Additives Banned in Europe but not in the USA.
Old 01-02-2019, 05:05 PM   #29
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Food Additives Banned in Europe but not in the USA.

https://www.google.com/search?q=chem...anana&tbm=ischIMG_0571.JPG
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Old 01-02-2019, 05:22 PM   #30
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Because they used beef tallow for their fries (look it up) and they want a similar taste Iím guessing.
That what I was thinking too. Their fries moved down a notch on the flavor scale when they stopped using beef tallow.

It's ironic that they used trans fats as a substitute for a number of years. I'd much rather eat beef tallow than partially hydrogenated vegetable oils.
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Old 01-02-2019, 05:40 PM   #31
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And what about "di-hydrogen monoxide" (DHMO)? That stuff is lethal. According to the CDC, it kills over 3,500 people a year in the US alone, yet the USA (including California) , the EU and virtually all countries on Earth allow it in the food we eat.

P.S. HFWR, I like the Banana list of chemicals. I may have to use that one too.
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Old 01-02-2019, 05:59 PM   #32
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Well, as a recently minted retiree with a modest portfolio, I hope cat food is safe for long term consumption. The dry stuff. Canned is way too expensive. But we're careful. Soy milk only as DW is lactose sensitive.
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Old 01-02-2019, 06:08 PM   #33
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That what I was thinking too. Their fries moved down a notch on the flavor scale when they stopped using beef tallow.

It's ironic that they used trans fats as a substitute for a number of years. I'd much rather eat beef tallow than partially hydrogenated vegetable oils.
I couldn't believe how good fish and chips tasted when I visited England... And I later realized it was cooked in lard. NO WONDER!!
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Old 01-02-2019, 06:18 PM   #34
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I couldn't believe how good fish and chips tasted when I visited England... And I later realized it was cooked in lard. NO WONDER!!
Cooking with lard can really improve food flavor.

My DWs pies were noticeably better than I was used too. It turns out she made the crusts with lard. Such a difference!
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Old 01-02-2019, 06:33 PM   #35
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For example, " ... sticking mostly to whole/real foods should help." Really? And what human-based statistical data support this theory?

"Consuming a lot of processed foods anywhere is not a good idea ... " And you have actual human-based statistical data (not mouse experiments) to support this theory?
Well, OldShooter, feel free to consume all of the ultra-processed foods that you like, if you think there is no evidence that they contribute to human health issues. Personally, I will continue to eat minimally-processed, whole foods whenever I can, and avoid most of the ultra-processed stuff. As for studies that support the negative health impacts from consuming ultra-processed foods, a 2-minute Google search turned up a couple shown below, and I know there are lots more.

By the way, I am a trained scientist as well, and worked as a scientist for 31 years. So your inference that you understand (and can interpret) science, and scientific studies, better than the rest of us doesn't really carry a lot of weight with me.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5986467/

https://www.heartandstroke.ca/-/medi...ec-5-2017.ashx
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Old 01-02-2019, 07:06 PM   #36
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I couldn't believe how good fish and chips tasted when I visited England... And I later realized it was cooked in lard. NO WONDER!!
A local pub owned by British Ex-pats and their family members states proudly on their menu that their chips are fired in nothing but beef and pork fat. They are very good chips. Same with the fish in the fish and chips.
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Old 01-02-2019, 07:09 PM   #37
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Cooking with lard can really improve food flavor.

My DWs pies were noticeably better than I was used too. It turns out she made the crusts with lard. Such a difference!
IIRC, Juilia child said one of the worst things to happen to cooking was the demonetization of lard. Of course, the lard she used was this wonderful white, almost fluffy stuff. Not the nasty, brownish, lard pictured in anti-fat propaganda.

I use real butter in my biscuits and such. Oils are either olive oil or avocado oil (when high heat is used).

For years I ate hydrogenated margarine in place of real butter because it had less saturated fat. How did that turn out? Thankfully, it doesn't seem to have hurt me very muchy.
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Old 01-02-2019, 08:53 PM   #38
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Well, OldShooter, feel free to consume all of the ultra-processed foods that you like, if you think there is no evidence that they contribute to human health issues. Personally, I will continue to eat minimally-processed, whole foods whenever I can, and avoid most of the ultra-processed stuff. As for studies that support the negative health impacts from consuming ultra-processed foods, a 2-minute Google search turned up a couple shown below, and I know there are lots more.

....

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5986467/

https://www.heartandstroke.ca/-/medi...ec-5-2017.ashx
I looked through those studies, I only saw references to obesity and getting too much sugar, salt, and not enough fiber from too much ultra-processed foods. OK, but we were talking about the 'fear' of 'chemical' additives (see post #3). Those are very different things.


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... Personally, I will continue to eat minimally-processed, whole foods whenever I can, and avoid most of the ultra-processed stuff. ...
As do I, mostly because I don't like how the ultra-processed stuff tastes. I don't like overly-sweet things, and I add salt as I desire, usually none to very little, except for certain foods that really seem to shine with some salt. We cook most meals from scratch. Because we like it that way. I can't remember the last time I had a 'soda' (other than sparkling water).

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Old 01-03-2019, 12:17 PM   #39
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Not a chemist so cannot comment on the additives listed.


But I remember reading about Europe not wanting to import food from the US since you guys used additives we don't allow. And this slowing down some trade agreements a few years back.


Your current President said some months ago that he would change this since it was not fair of Europe to stop US food export. But I havent heard any recent news on this.


And I do use Splenda. And Stevia, Erythrol, isomalt and other sweeteners. Don't like sugar much. The link between sugar and diabetes is well proven.
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Old 01-03-2019, 12:36 PM   #40
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... But I remember reading about Europe not wanting to import food from the US since you guys used additives we don't allow. And this slowing down some trade agreements a few years back. ...
Drawing inferences from this kind of thing is risky. Import restrictions based on various criteria are popular non-tariff barriers and the EU farmers are particularly effective at feathering their own nests through subsidies, tariffs, and non-tariff barriers. These tactics are also very popular in Japan.

In the US we have our own, too. Feathering the sugar producers' nests is probably the most economically damaging for the US consumer. I'm sure there are many other foods and commodities that are similarly restricted to benefit the few at the expense of the many.
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