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Old 01-03-2019, 12:48 PM   #41
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Speaking of "processed" foods, I buy my coffee beans at Trader Joe's and when I'm there I usually stop by the meat case for a laugh. It features a wide range of bacon, sausage, and other meats all prominently marked "uncured." Obviously the clientele sees "cured" as "processed" and hence evil.

The joke is that all that meat is in fact cured. Curing uses sodium nitrite, a simple inorganic chemical. Yes. Evil. Chemical. Well, it turns out that many vegetables, including celery, contain fairly large amounts of sodium nitrite. So turn over all those "uncured" meat packages and see the ingredients: "celery juice" in most cases.

The reason they can be (fraudulently, IMO) marked "uncured" is due to an FDA regulation that requires the marking when the amount of sodium nitrite is somewhat uncertain. Of course the manufacturers of that "uncured" product know exactly how much sodium nitrite there is -- they don't want the product to rot on the shelves. But somehow they have developed this regulatory wrinkle into a marketing tool by which to ensnare the gullible.

More: https://news.psu.edu/story/510148/20...eef-penn-state
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Old 01-03-2019, 12:52 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by ERD50 View Post
Well, everything is toxic, it all depends on the dose.

Sure, I'm not saying play with fire, but we do not eat a lot of processed food, we make our meals mostly from scratch. So I'm not gonna get all worked up about 1,000 different things that might harm me if consume them in high amounts, when I only consume them occasionally. There are more important things to worry about. I'm actually more worried about the things organic farmers are allowed to use, simply because they are 'natural'.

"Natural" food contains all sorts of known toxins in far greater doses than this stuff of unknown toxicity. But you don't eat thousands of apple seeds either. Or drink 5 gallons of water a day. So yes, moderation does matter.

So an 80 kg / ~ 175 # man could die from ~ 7 liters ( ~ 2 gallons) of water. I bet I drink 1/3rd that amount many days. Dosage matters.

Heck a man can drink a couple 5% alc 12 oz beers a day, and some studies show that to be a positive. But drink 50 of those and you are probably dead. 50x and dead, not the thousands that are talked about with some of these additives in theses studies, that are still inconclusive.

-ERD50

DH is a food scientist (Phd). You are 100% correct, ERD. A friend of ours worked for a flavors company in Chicago. She shared this tidbit with me, 1 cup of blueberry flavoring will kill an elephant.

The amount of these chemicals are so small, but if you consider how it accumulates in the body over time can be problematic. Hence, all the hype about certain chemicals causing cancer and various diseases. I do not eat processed food, although it helped us FIRE cuz DH helped create the stuff.
Pick up a processed foods magazine (we get many) and read the ads, the articles, the smiling faces of the food scientists, engineers. It's kind of creepy.
Many things in nature are deadly and we don't even realize it.

Hemlock is a very pretty plant. Recently, a master naturalist, a lady I know, worked on the trails in the forest preserves weeding back invasive species without gloves. She became very ill and it lasted several months. The hemlock absorbed into her skin overtime and she almost died.

Too much of anything, natural or chemical is unhealthy.
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Old 01-03-2019, 01:16 PM   #43
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... Too much of anything, natural or chemical is unhealthy. ...
Not to pick on you or to be impolite, but when I see a statement like this I always wonder what there could be that is "natural" but not "chemical."
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Old 01-03-2019, 02:14 PM   #44
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Not to pick on you or to be impolite, but when I see a statement like this I always wonder what there could be that is "natural" but not "chemical."
Marketing. Would you buy a product that said 100% Chemical? I was just referring to the packaging and marketing of the product. Although, have you ever seen a bee drink a diet coke? Highly unlikely.
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Old 01-03-2019, 02:32 PM   #45
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Marketing. Would you buy a product that said 100% Chemical? I was just referring to the packaging and marketing of the product. Although, have you ever seen a bee drink a diet coke? Highly unlikely.
But the little suckers just love my wine! I have to use a coaster to cover my glass when outside.
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Old 01-03-2019, 03:48 PM   #46
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But the little suckers just love my wine! I have to use a coaster to cover my glass when outside.
No one has explained to them that yeast excrement, ethyl hydroxide (C2H5OH), is not "natural." They probably have not read the MSDS either: https://fscimage.fishersci.com/msds/91467.htm
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Old 01-03-2019, 04:02 PM   #47
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These sorts of discussions always make me think of that dreaded chemical associated with Chinese restaurants, monosodium glutamate.

Back in the 1950s when MSG first came to mass attention, marketed under the brand name Ac'cent, I thought it was the coolest thing because not only did it enhance other flavors, but it also had a pretty good flavor of its own.

As a little kid, I used to pour a teaspoon of it into my hand and lick it up. I've eaten copious amounts of it all my life, and still enjoy using it in my cooking. Strangely, it doesn't seem to have damaged me very much.

But the popular concept that it's one step short of poison is still around.
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Old 01-11-2019, 04:37 PM   #48
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In Europe, most folks go "nuts" over food additives and the inclusion of GMO-type items in their food, yet they live right next to numerous nuclear power generation plants, with almost 200 such plants being located in the EU.

In the United States, most people go "nuts" over the idea of living next to a nuclear power generation facility, yet consume without concern additives in their foods, the same often made using GMO ingredients.

Go figure.....
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Old 01-11-2019, 10:53 PM   #49
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And the Cavendish Banana (the one most familiar to people under 70 years old) is itself a genetic freak, and can only be cloned...

Big Mike, the “original” edible and popular banana was effectively wiped out due to its selective genetic tinkering by humans. Think potato famine of Ireland.
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Old 01-12-2019, 09:20 AM   #50
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Cultural differences are interesting. I remember my first visit to France. I found out that the French smoked a lot more and in public, drank more wine than anybody, ate cheese made from un-pasturized milk , and on Bastille Day set off personal fireworks in the public parks. All of this is apparently quite legal. And they lived a bit longer than we Americans did.

But, GMOs?? Je ne aurais jamais!!

FWIW, they see no need for separate, adult-only seating areas for people drinking alcohol at the street side cafes. GASP!!! Surely all their children must turn into drunks by the time they are 14.

How any of them live past 50 is beyond me.
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Old 01-12-2019, 12:46 PM   #51
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Europe economic growth is stunted by massive regulations that aren't proven to stop anything. It's the way bureaucracies increase their self-importance/control of lives & demands for more spending on them. It's why so many Euros are disgruntled with the EU & their country government both. Anything "may" or "concern" is unproven.
Well, yes and no. Politically, I know what you are saying but we're not going there.

But take something like wine. European vs. US. The hardest thing about French wines to Americans is the label. European wines, especially French wines are sold strictly by the region, then domaine. One purchases a wine knowing in advance that a particular wine is made with xx grape, blended with x or y grape, grown by that vineyard, farmed by that organization, and the vintner is part of that organization. (Usually a family) And one pays a price knowing that information always, and only vintage year is different.

In the US however, strict laws regarding labels, drives wineries crazy. A xx wine from a vineyard must have minimum 75% of xx grape in it. The thought is the consumer is paying for xx wine, made with xx grapes, so they must pay xx prices for that wine. God forbid one pay too much, but wines from good wineries are blended to improve taste, not to rip folks off. For example, if my wine contains 78% Cab and 23% Malbec, I may be able to charge $78.00 bottle for it. But if I use 70% Cab and 30% Malbec, it is now a blend,and I may only be able to charge $58.00 for it, because it, by law, is now a blend. In France, unless they sell it in the States, it is still the same wine, and costs the same. I have to get my label approved before I'm allowed to stick it on a bottle, and that takes a fee and a few months time. I have to reapply for a new label approval even if all I change is the year the grapes in the wine was changed. European laws are much more relaxed in this area.

As far as additives, sulfites are added as a formula of pH content, despite there being sulfites formed during the fermentation and growing processes.
There is more sulfites in white wine to prevent browning than red wines, despite claims that one gets headaches from the sulfites in red wine. More histamines are created in red wine, which may be the root cause, unless one is not properly hydrated and drinks too much. There is more sulfites in dried fruit than we put in wine. The use of bentonite (clay dirt) as a clarifier is occasionally used, but it drops out with the dirty grape proteins that cloud a wine. Chitosan, a shellfish derivative, is used also, and it drops out too. They are natural, but they do produce a chemical effect. And if I decide to filter my wine, is that processing? If I filter to 1.8 microns, the wine is more polished, and will have no floaties in it. But if I filter to .5 microns to remove any yeast that may want to revive and create havoc, is that over processing?

I started making homebrew years ago because DW was celiac and could not imbibe in most commercial beers/ales. It was the ability to add an enzyme, Clarity-Ferm, used in Europe, to break down the protein haze, thus removing the gluten, a protein. It is not recognized by the FDA as a gluten remover. After 10 years of occasional controlled quaffing of these malted beverages, it has been quite successful, and she has not grown a third arm due to the use of this additive.

All food preservation is dependent upon some kind of additive or chemical process. Adding sugar or salt to a food is a form of preservation not only seasoning. Is the use of chemical smoke flavoring better than the use of my smoker using my hickory, apple or plum trees? The use of diluted wine that has soured from bacteria and oxygen exposure (vinegar)?
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Old 01-12-2019, 01:16 PM   #52
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....

In the US however, strict laws regarding labels, drives wineries crazy. A xx wine from a vineyard must have minimum 75% of xx grape in it. The thought is the consumer is paying for xx wine, made with xx grapes, so they must pay xx prices for that wine. God forbid one pay too much, but wines from good wineries are blended to improve taste, not to rip folks off. For example, if my wine contains 78% Cab and 23% Malbec, I may be able to charge $78.00 bottle for it. But if I use 70% Cab and 30% Malbec, it is now a blend,and I may only be able to charge $58.00 for it, because it, by law, is now a blend. ...
The whole post is very interesting, but can you clarify this point? I'm pretty sure you mean that the law states you must label it as a blend, and a 'blend' does not fetch as much on the open market (due to consumer perception?)? Not that the law is dictating prices?

I'm no connoisseur of wine at all, and while I've enjoyed some blends, and I understand why a vintner would want to blend to achieve a certain flavor profile and that could produce a higher quality wine, I can also understand that a consumer knows they like a Cabernet they've had before, or a Zinfandel, or whatever, and maybe didn't care for another varietal, so they tend to look for those as a somewhat known entity. So consumer demand is pushing blends to the side?


Speaking of clarifying things [rimshot!], I'm on my 4th batch of home made wine, the first from a kit, the rest from a 6 gallon bucket of juice that a local wine club has shipped in from Chile or CA (Spring and Fall). The kit had several clarifiers, the bentonite (kitty litter! ), and a couple others (one a 2-part) that I forget the names of. Apparently, these were mostly just to speed up the process, for more immediate gratification for the consumer. For the juice, I only used the initial bentonite mix, and just gave it time in the carboys (racking from plastic bucket fermentor, to carboy, then to second carboy, then bottling). About 3 months in each carboy.

They are crystal clear at bottling, about 6 months after fermentation (maybe sooner, but I've let them go that long), so I don't plan to bother with any clarifiers. There are reds, Cabernet, a Zinf, and this fall, a Ruby Cabernet from CA.

So I'm assuming this is the same with commercial vintners? They are using the clarifiers just to speed the process? I'm lazy, and in no rush after the first, so letting the wine sit for a few more months works for me.

-ERD50
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Old 01-12-2019, 04:47 PM   #53
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Lunch today. Taco John's Super Nachos. Syntho cheese with bright yellow dye, several varieties of diethyl-trimethyl foodlike substances, delivered in a plastic tray and served with a plastic fork. Delicious!

(I wonder what they do in California. I don't think there would be room on the tray for all the warnings that the CA bureaucrats would mandate.)
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Old 01-13-2019, 05:08 PM   #54
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The whole post is very interesting, but can you clarify this point? I'm pretty sure you mean that the law states you must label it as a blend, and a 'blend' does not fetch as much on the open market (due to consumer perception?)? Not that the law is dictating prices? Yes, this is correct for wines made in the US for consumption in the US.

The point of the law is to "protect" consumers from themselves when buying a wine.

I'm no connoisseur of wine at all, and while I've enjoyed some blends, and I understand why a vintner would want to blend to achieve a certain flavor profile and that could produce a higher quality wine, I can also understand that a consumer knows they like a Cabernet they've had before, or a Zinfandel, or whatever, and maybe didn't care for another varietal, so they tend to look for those as a somewhat known entity. So consumer demand is pushing blends to the side?

Most red wines are blends. For example, Cabernets are blended with Petit Verdot for improved color, aroma and tannin, Malbec for color, fruitiness, mouthfeel, Merlot for softness and fruitiness, or Petite Syrah for color and tannins, individually or a combination therof. But by law they cannot be called and sold as a Cabernet if that percentage is more than 26%. Even a trained supertaster is not going to notice a 1% difference in taste, but the market will discount that wine 10-15% in price because it is a blend.

A "Frere Jacques" red made in France for French wine drinkers will be sold at a price because of the reputation of the "Frere Jacques" vineyard if it were a 74% varietal, or 65% for that matter.

Speaking of clarifying things [rimshot!], I'm on my 4th batch of home made wine, the first from a kit, the rest from a 6 gallon bucket of juice that a local wine club has shipped in from Chile or CA (Spring and Fall). The kit had several clarifiers, the bentonite (kitty litter! ), and a couple others (one a 2-part) that I forget the names of. Apparently, these were mostly just to speed up the process, for more immediate gratification for the consumer. For the juice, I only used the initial bentonite mix, and just gave it time in the carboys (racking from plastic bucket fermentor, to carboy, then to second carboy, then bottling). About 3 months in each carboy.

Yes, the 2 part envelope of clarifiers speed up the process as kit wines can be ready to drink/bottle in 4 weeks. But the will also taste like 4 week old kit wines, which you may or may not be able to taste. Hence the aging process, which is also a clarifying process as well, due to gravity. To a home winemaker who is only trying to please oneself, that will suffice many. A winemaker who sells his wares on an open market has to make wines that customers will buy, and they are not going to buy even a slightly cloudy wine in their $25 or $2 wine glass. It will be filtered. If a white, rose' wine or beer, it will have a clarifier or two in it.

They are crystal clear at bottling, about 6 months after fermentation (maybe sooner, but I've let them go that long), so I don't plan to bother with any clarifiers. There are reds, Cabernet, a Zinf, and this fall, a Ruby Cabernet from CA.

So I'm assuming this is the same with commercial vintners? They are using the clarifiers just to speed the process? I'm lazy, and in no rush after the first, so letting the wine sit for a few more months works for me.

My homemade red wines age for at least a year in carboys, demijohns or stainless tanks before they see any oak, aged in oak depending on the age of the barrel, and up to 3 months in a bottle before I release them. At the winery over the hill where I help out at, they age up to 1 year and bottle as needed. He has to make good wines and a profit, I just like to make good wines.

-ERD50
I hope I cleaned things up above. Any other questions PM me, I feel like I hijacked the thread.
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Old 01-13-2019, 06:57 PM   #55
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The whole post is very interesting, but can you clarify this point? I'm pretty sure you mean that the law states you must label it as a blend, and a 'blend' does not fetch as much on the open market (due to consumer perception?)? Not that the law is dictating prices?

I'm no connoisseur of wine at all, and while I've enjoyed some blends, and I understand why a vintner would want to blend to achieve a certain flavor profile and that could produce a higher quality wine, I can also understand that a consumer knows they like a Cabernet they've had before, or a Zinfandel, or whatever, and maybe didn't care for another varietal, so they tend to look for those as a somewhat known entity. So consumer demand is pushing blends to the side?


Speaking of clarifying things [rimshot!], I'm on my 4th batch of home made wine, the first from a kit, the rest from a 6 gallon bucket of juice that a local wine club has shipped in from Chile or CA (Spring and Fall). The kit had several clarifiers, the bentonite (kitty litter! ), and a couple others (one a 2-part) that I forget the names of. Apparently, these were mostly just to speed up the process, for more immediate gratification for the consumer. For the juice, I only used the initial bentonite mix, and just gave it time in the carboys (racking from plastic bucket fermentor, to carboy, then to second carboy, then bottling). About 3 months in each carboy.

They are crystal clear at bottling, about 6 months after fermentation (maybe sooner, but I've let them go that long), so I don't plan to bother with any clarifiers. There are reds, Cabernet, a Zinf, and this fall, a Ruby Cabernet from CA.

So I'm assuming this is the same with commercial vintners? They are using the clarifiers just to speed the process? I'm lazy, and in no rush after the first, so letting the wine sit for a few more months works for me.

-ERD50
Euro wines and their control is a rat hole and deserves its own thread. Many Euro wines defined by a region like Bourdeaux, Chianti, Chateaneuf du Pape, Gigondas, etc are blends, but what varietals are allowed and how much can be produced is controlled and thus prices are somewhat managed.
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Old 01-14-2019, 05:12 AM   #56
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Euro wines and their control is a rat hole and deserves its own thread. Many Euro wines defined by a region like Bourdeaux, Chianti, Chateaneuf du Pape, Gigondas, etc are blends, but what varietals are allowed and how much can be produced is controlled and thus prices are somewhat managed.
Yes, but those rules are regional and not federally dictated. A Bordeaux wine is not going to put a Rhone varietal in it's blend because not promoting it's own region, and would also break the definition of a Bordeaux wine. And even a wine such as a Bordeaux is broken down further in geograghical regions based on location of the winery; Left or Right Bank. Call it marketing, regionalism, "terroirism" or whatever, the same may be said for Napa vs. Sonoma, Lodi or Central coast. But it is not federal regulations.

There is a big lawsuit now regarding Copper Cane's wines. Grapes grown in Oregon are trucked to a California winery for processing and there are claims of labeling violations as to whether it is a Oregon wine or Californian wine, or whether some Californian grapes are "contaminating" Oregonian wine. It also may be retaliation for the winery's refusal to accept grapes that have a possible smoke taint from this summer's fires.
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Old 01-14-2019, 05:35 AM   #57
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Yes, but those rules are regional and not federally dictated. A Bordeaux wine is not going to put a Rhone varietal in it's blend because not promoting it's own region, and would also break the definition of a Bordeaux wine. And even a wine such as a Bordeaux is broken down further in geograghical regions based on location of the winery; Left or Right Bank. Call it marketing, regionalism, "terroirism" or whatever, the same may be said for Napa vs. Sonoma, Lodi or Central coast. But it is not federal regulations.

There is a big lawsuit now regarding Copper Cane's wines. Grapes grown in Oregon are trucked to a California winery for processing and there are claims of labeling violations as to whether it is a Oregon wine or Californian wine, or whether some Californian grapes are "contaminating" Oregonian wine. It also may be retaliation for the winery's refusal to accept grapes that have a possible smoke taint from this summer's fires.
I am very familiar with the suit and I avoid corporate wines for good reason though I have many friends who think Meiomi, The Prisoner and Apothic Red (all blends I might add) are the epitome of what wines should be, but not me.
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Old 01-14-2019, 06:12 AM   #58
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Here’s just the tip of the iceberg on what may be in your wine.
https://winesvinesanalytics.com/features/article/51033
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Old 01-14-2019, 06:47 AM   #59
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Here’s just the tip of the iceberg on what may be in your wine.
https://winesvinesanalytics.com/features/article/51033
I personally do not use M-P nor anyone in my wine circles here back east and in northern California. I would tend to expect it in jug wines or any wine that tastes the same year after year, such as Apothic Red. Funny though, AP is considered a dry red wine, but contains more residual sugar than any of my sweet wines. Yet, California law forbids the addition of sugar in California wines.

I do suspect it in kit wines for home winemakers.
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Old 01-14-2019, 06:53 AM   #60
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I personally do not use M-P nor anyone in my wine circles here back east and in northern California. I would tend to expect it in jug wines or any wine that tastes the same year after year, such as Apothic Red. Funny though, AP is considered a dry red wine, but contains more residual sugar than any of my sweet wines. Yet, California law forbids the addition of sugar in California wines.

I do suspect it in kit wines for home winemakers.
CA forbids it yet there is a run on sugar almost every year in CA. LOL.
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