France LOWERS retirement age for some (60)

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Of course, I would not want to pay the taxes my manager (who lived in Sweden) did either, but that's another story.

A Frenchman once told me about the 'social contract' the French have with their country/government. They willingly pay high taxes in exchange for many benefits that are 'extra-cost' for we Americans. It's far to complex of a cultural issue to be understood in a news article written at the 6th grade level.
 
No. French people recognize that women are still the ones bearing kids and most likely raising them as well. What it means is that a woman tends to be penalized by the French retirement system compared to their male counterparts because she may have to time time off work. Therefore, women who have had children get compensated with retirement credits.

But women also live longer than men. So why should they be allowed "out" earlier than men? Doesn't that mean they'll systematically collect more lifetime benefits than their male counterparts?
 
But women also live longer than men. So why should they be allowed "out" earlier than men? Doesn't that mean they'll systematically collect more lifetime benefits than their male counterparts?
Everyone - whatever their views on feminism etc etc - should read this book, which covers a number of issues very similar to the one you raise.

Actually, until recently, in most European retirement systems, women used to retire(*) 5 years or so before men, regardless of their contribution status - whether they'd worked from age 16 and never had kids, or stayed at home and brought up 15 children. This was declared unlawful by the European Court of Justice a few years ago and the various systems scrambled to equalise the ages. Some split the difference (eg, men 65/women 60 became 62); others took advantage of the change to nudge the overall average age up, as our pension systems are looking at the same time bomb that Americans face with SS as the age pyramid evolves.



(*) Whatever that means; in this context, it typically means "take the same benefits, assuming X years of contributions". I'm currently in some tricky negotiations with a French government agency over some benefit which I'm entitled to because I'm "retired"; they're arguing that I don't meet their definition of "retired" because I'm not old enough for a French pension, I'm arguing that that's irrelevant because I'm not entitled to that pension.
 
In addition, most are required to take their vacation (usually 20 days - a full month) during the month of August (varies by company). Sweden does the same thing for the month of July. At least that was the schedule for the companies I worked for at the time. Of course, being based in a U.S. subsidiary, I did not have to adhere to any such schedule.

Most of vacation in Europe is centered around the school schedule.

To take a week here and there is not common, as it is in the U.S.
French employers have considerable say in when their staff can take vacation time. If the factory closes all through August, that's 20 of your 30 vacation days you have to take right there. No kids and don't want to pay premium high-season prices for vacation accommodations? Tough.

Alternatively, if your company doesn't shut, and insists that 2 out of 3 people doing job X must be around at all times, and the two more senior people want to take four weeks each in July and August, then as the junior you're going to be scrambling to find ways to take your family away. Something similar to this has happened to DW for the last 3 years. Her boss has asked the two more senior people to "try and be more flexible", but they have little incentive to comply. Fortunately, with DS/DD out of the house, we don't need to take too much time away in the summer.

The Swedish situation is, I believe, slightly different. I recall reading that it's a legal requirement there for people to take a 3-week break from work once a year, presumably for some kind of psychological/de-stressing reasons (although since the arrival of e-mail and BlackBerry, maybe that doesn't work as well for all types of employment). This was mentioned in the French media a couple of years ago when a trader lost his bank 5 billion Euros (he basically shorted the entire German stock market; 5 billion was what it cost the bank to unwind his 50 billion Euro position over a weekend, while keeping things *very* quiet). It turned out that he had been covering up a series of increasingly dangerous trades over the previous 3 years, during which time he had taken *zero* vacation days, partly because he was becoming obsessed, partly out of fear that someone would look at his accounts while he was away.

A Frenchman once told me about the 'social contract' the French have with their country/government. They willingly pay high taxes in exchange for many benefits that are 'extra-cost' for we Americans. It's far to complex of a cultural issue to be understood in a news article written at the 6th grade level.

This is true, although the specific term "social contract" doesn't come up much in conversation (perhaps because it's such a part of the wallpaper). It's also true, to a greater or lesser extent, of most European countries. We never had the frontier, but we had a couple of big wars right here on our territory (my 77-year-old neighbour was telling me just yesterday how he used to run errands for the German anti-aircraft crews stationed 500 feet from where we were standing: his Mom did their laundry in return for some of their rations). I guess that we kind of took a collective decision that a bit of peace was worth paying some taxes and being a little less competitive.
 
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The Swedish situation is, I believe, slightly different. I recall reading that it's a legal requirement there for people to take a 3-week break from work once a year, presumably for some kind of psychological/de-stressing reasons...
Also, the Swede's have another reason to take off in "mid-summer" since late-June to late-July is the best time for most to get sunlight which is at a preimum during the winter months. I hated to be there in the winter due to lack of sunlight; you went to w*rk in the dark and left in the dark.

Of course, in the spring/summer, it's full sun at 3-4 a.m. so you better have your "sleep shutters" down (although it was sometimes tough to ignore the noise from the seagulls at that time of morning :LOL: )...
 
Bignick, having worked my entire adult life under non-US labor laws and also dealing frequently with "selective highlighting" by US HQ folks, I think you're doing an excellent job of putting perspective on something that is otherwise very difficult to comprehend and compare.
 
I guess that we kind of took a collective decision that a bit of peace was worth paying some taxes and being a little less competitive.
Makes sense. Also, it is well established that more homogeneous societies are more open to social welfare schemes. Voters see their taxes coming back in services for them, their parents, their children. Coming out of WW2 western european countries grew and improved their social welfare schemes under considerable demographic homogeneity. As this is changing and perhaps will continue to change, there may be some rocky road ahead for european social welfare planning.

Ha
 
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Bignick, having worked my entire adult life under non-US labor laws and also dealing frequently with "selective highlighting" by US HQ folks, I think you're doing an excellent job of putting perspective on something that is otherwise very difficult to comprehend and compare.
Why, thank you. I can but try. :)
 
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I think the Scandinavians pay amongst the highest tax rates in the world, yet they are all happy to do so because of what they get from their government in return. Weren't the Danish recently found to be the happiest people in the world and it was related to the fact that everyone was looked after.
 
DangerMouse said:
I think the Scandinavians pay amongst the highest tax rates in the world, yet they are all happy to do so because of what they get from their government in return. Weren't the Danish recently found to be the happiest people in the world and it was related to the fact that everyone was looked after.

Meanwhile the USAians seem to be getting more and more unhappy. Seeing all those old people living large on their fat $1065/month Social Security checks is apparently the problem, if I can believe what our Fearless Leaders say.. (Based on Q1 2012 average $1200 check less average Medicare plan $135 deduction.)
 
Does anybody else apprecaite the irony of a bunch of people who post on a forum dedicated to early retirement, wondering how the French can lower the retirement age to 60 ?
 
Does anybody else apprecaite the irony of a bunch of people who post on a forum dedicated to early retirement, wondering how the French can lower the retirement age to 60 ?
That isn't the only irony found on this board.

Ha
 
Let's reserve judgement and see how the increased social spending works out for them. They are free to make their decisions (as they did with their recent election) and enjoy the consequences.

But, I hope those in the US will resist the urge to bail France out "for our own good." Those US workers toiling extra weeks every year and being more productive (on average) each hour they spend on the job might not take it well.


I am pretty sure that US tax payers won't be bailing out the French. The scary thing to me is what happens, when the Chinese worker who put in 50-60 hour weeks, with very little in the way of benefits. (Now days even high school education has to be paid by Chinese workers) suddenly start screaming at their government to stop loaning money to 1st world countries at very low rates.
 
The scary thing to me is what happens, when the Chinese worker who put in 50-60 hour weeks, with very little in the way of benefits. (Now days even high school education has to be paid by Chinese workers) suddenly start screaming at their government to stop loaning money to 1st world countries at very low rates.

That's scary to me mostly because it will result in them getting imprisoned, tortured, or shot. It will take a while yet before China's middle class is able to tap the Communists on the shoulder and ask them to move over.
 
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