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Old 11-28-2007, 05:36 PM   #21
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Well now, it wouldnt be a particularly fair tax if it was unfair to someone, would it?

Seems like a legitimate question to me.

Or you could just do a search on 'fairtax' to see one of the other prior discussions where everyone pasted each other in the face over the topic.
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Old 11-28-2007, 05:47 PM   #22
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Well now, it wouldnt be a particularly fair tax if it was unfair to someone, would it?

Seems like a legitimate question to me.

Or you could just do a search on 'fairtax' to see one of the other prior discussions where everyone pasted each other in the face over the topic.
You decide on the basis of my postings, whether you see it as unworthy to advocate. Give me your reasons, and I'll be happy to respond.
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Old 11-28-2007, 06:01 PM   #23
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Oh, c'mon. You're wasting my time. Give me a legitimate, and useful question.
I'm asking if you think the "fairtax" is fair to everyone. It should be a simple yes or no.

You are pushing the "fairtax" in every post you make like a snake oil salesman promoting a product that will cure everything and anything, but when someone asks you a simple question about what magic ingredients are in your snake oil, you don't want to tell them.

Why would you not want to answer a simple question about a self-described tax? Is the description accurate or not?
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Old 11-28-2007, 06:11 PM   #24
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You are pushing the "fairtax" in every post you make like a snake oil salesman promoting a product that will cure everything and anything...
Tell me what you think it won't cure, and I'll be happy to respond. I've already given you reasons why to advocate for FairTax (I wouldn't term my comments as "snake oil" - that would presuppose that I'm talking to some simple folk here. I never make such an assumption - although, I might consider revising that opinion of you based on your little Q./A. strategy.)
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Old 11-28-2007, 06:59 PM   #25
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You decide on the basis of my postings, whether you see it as unworthy to advocate. Give me your reasons, and I'll be happy to respond.
So far all of your postings have to do with fairtax and fairtax only. Perhaps if you had something else to say I'd have a pretty good idea of what sort of 'advocate' you are...

I think we beat the fair tax thing pretty well already, but it seems to me that the summary was that its merits are irrelevant since it'd never get passed.
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Old 11-28-2007, 08:39 PM   #26
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Um, SamClem was talking about a tax plan that is a flat tax plan, not a national sales tax. Somehow we got off track. But anyway, as other posters have mentioned, we have talked about a national sales tax in detail before. The discussions were pretty thoughtful. This one, not so much.

Some thoughts on the "fairness" of the fair tax: the money has to come from somewhere. I have not seen a satisfactory explanation why the "fair" tax would be more fair than our progressive income tax system. Equal does not mean fair. What I see is that people who have greater necessities will pay greater taxes and complexity will rise significantly for those of little income.

For example, under the national sales tax proposals, services would be taxed. So, if you have high medical costs, you will pay tax on those services. The same amount of tax that would be paid if you decided to buy a yacht.

So changes may be made to make the fair tax more fair. For example, if you taxed all services, educational expenses would be taxed. However, most proposals appear to exclude education expenses.

So, we are back to deciding what to tax, what not to tax, and should the rates differ.

Just a taste of the issues.

SamClem, nice summary on Thompson's plan.
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Old 11-28-2007, 09:41 PM   #27
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Tell me what you think it won't cure, and I'll be happy to respond. I've already given you reasons why to advocate for FairTax (I wouldn't term my comments as "snake oil" - that would presuppose that I'm talking to some simple folk here. I never make such an assumption - although, I might consider revising that opinion of you based on your little Q./A. strategy.)
By not stating that you think it is fair to everyone, we can only infer that you do not think it is fair to everyone. It would be just as easy to have said that from the beginning. That's OK, most people here and around the country think it is not fair to everyone either. That's probably why it has not and will not get any traction and is only used as a political tool around voting season to bring in some fringe votes.

If you do a search on this forum, you will find that not only have I stated what I think about this "fairtax" in fine detail, but I've also countered a couple other "fairtax" evangelicals like you. So please consider reading all those posts before you label me as "simple folk."
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Old 11-28-2007, 10:32 PM   #28
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I think we beat the fair tax thing pretty well already, but it seems to me that the summary was that its merits are irrelevant since it'd never get passed.
Yes, that's the American, "can do" spirit. I'm honored to be among such an intelligent group that figures that if something's worth doing, but "it'd never get passed," its merits are irrelevant.

I'll be on my way, now.
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Old 11-28-2007, 10:34 PM   #29
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Bye bye.
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Old 11-29-2007, 08:20 AM   #30
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Oh dear...I'd say something like "its not feasible to pass the 'law' because its got holes so big you can drive a truck through them and anyone thats taken a 'fair' look at it could see that", but how about...



Dont let the fair screen door hit ya on the way out.
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Old 11-29-2007, 12:21 PM   #31
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Some thoughts on the "fairness" of the fair tax: the money has to come from somewhere. I have not seen a satisfactory explanation why the "fair" tax would be more fair than our progressive income tax system.
Prices after FairTax passage would look similar to prices before FairTax - not "30% higher" as opponents contend - competition would see to it. So, the FairTax rate (figured as an income-tax-rate-non-comparative, sales tax) on new items would be 29.85% (on the new, reduced cost of items because business isn't taxed under FairTax - thus lowering retail prices by 20% to 30%), or 23% of the "tax inclusive" price tag - this is the way INCOME TAX is figured (parts of the total dollar).

The effective tax rate percentages, that different income groups would pay under the FairTax, are calculated by crediting the monthly "prebate" (advance rebate of projected tax on necessities) against total monthly spending of citizen families (1 member and greater, Dept. of Commerce poverty-level data; a single person receiving ~$200/mo, a family of four, ~$500/mo, in addition to working earners receiving paychecks with no Federal deductions) Prof.'s Kotlikoff and Rapson (10/06) concluded,

"...the FairTax imposes much lower average taxes on working-age households than does the current system. The FairTax broadens the tax base from what is now primarily a system of labor income taxation to a system that taxes, albeit indirectly, both labor income and existing wealth. By including existing wealth in the effective tax base, much of which is owned by rich and middle-class elderly households, the FairTax is able to tax labor income at a lower effective rate and, thereby, lower the average lifetime tax rates facing working-age Americans.

"Consider, as an example, a single household age 30 earning $50,000. The householdís average tax rate under the current system is 21.1 percent. Itís 13.5 percent under the FairTax. Since the FairTax would preserve the purchasing power of Social Security benefits and also provide a tax rebate, older low-income workers who will live primarily or exclusively on Social Security would be better off. As an example, the average remaining lifetime tax rate for an age 60 married couple with $20,000 of earnings falls from its current value of 7.2 percent to -11.0 percent under the FairTax. As another example, compare the current 24.0 percent remaining lifetime average tax rate of a married age 45 couple with $100,000 in earnings to the 14.7 percent rate that arises under the FairTax."

Further, per Jokischa and Kotlikoff (circa 2006?) ...

"...once one moves to generations postdating the baby boomers there are positive welfare gains for all income groups in each cohort. Under a 23 percent FairTax policy, the poorest members of the generation born in 1990 enjoy a 13.5 percent welfare gain. Their middle-class and rich contemporaries experience 5 and 2 percent welfare gains, respectively. The welfare gains are largest for future generations. Take the cohort born in 2030. The poorest members of this cohort enjoy a huge 26 percent improvement in their well-being. For middle class members of this birth group, there's a 12 percent welfare gain. And for the richest members of the group, the gain is 5 percent."
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Old 11-29-2007, 03:06 PM   #32
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I believe it was the Republicans, Rep Archer, and I think Delay, that were going to do away with the Income Tax when they got control of the House and Senate..... didn't they get control? The Democrats aren't even talking about it, and they have control. I still have huge doubts the major changes to the Income Tax will come about in my or my children's lifespan!
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Old 11-29-2007, 03:23 PM   #33
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I still have huge doubts the major changes to the Income Tax will come about in my or my children's lifespan!
Compared to my outlook on the possibility of serious tax reform, I'd classify you as an optimist!
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Old 11-29-2007, 03:57 PM   #34
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Old 11-29-2007, 06:08 PM   #35
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I hate that when someone says they're leaving and then they keep talking.

I mean, what the hell happened to commitment?
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Old 11-29-2007, 06:12 PM   #36
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I hate that when someone says they're leaving and then they keep talking. I mean, what the hell happened to commitment?
Okay, okay, I confess weakness!
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Old 11-29-2007, 06:23 PM   #37
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Then with a stiff upper lip, may I suggest that you round out your community participation a bit, and if you'd like to discuss the "fair tax" some more, put your comments into an existing thread on the subject or start a new one if you feel like the existing threads just werent "getting it"?

Just a little friendly advice. One-note wonders who drag discussions off-topic often are perceived as being some sort of self-serving tool. Especially when its a political topic.
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Be fearful when others are greedy, and greedy when others are fearful. Just another form of "buy low, sell high" for those who have trouble with things. This rule is not universal. Do not buy a 1973 Pinto because everyone else is afraid of it.
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Old 11-29-2007, 06:37 PM   #38
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Then with a stiff upper lip, may I suggest that you round out your community participation a bit, and if you'd like to discuss the "fair tax" some more, put your comments into an existing thread on the subject or start a new one if you feel like the existing threads just werent "getting it"?
Better keep that lip stiff, we wouldn't want any more leakage. (My first post was in response to a comment on the "flat tax" - the present thread evolved from there.)
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Old 11-29-2007, 06:42 PM   #39
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You arent the fastest person to make it to my ignore list, nor will you be the only one that I'm never tempted to click 'view post' on to see if you've come up with something interesting.

So in other words, a fairly ordinary nuisance.
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Old 11-29-2007, 07:31 PM   #40
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You arent the fastest person to make it to my ignore list, nor will you be the only one that I'm never tempted to click 'view post' on to see if you've come up with something interesting.

So in other words, a fairly ordinary nuisance.
Betcha clicked on this one! lol
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