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Old 11-06-2009, 11:34 AM   #21
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I donīt want to be controversial, but we Spaniards canīt understand how something like this can happen in the country whose military and psychology expertise we admire and learn from.
Iīd like to hear the US version of the causes of these episodes, not only this one in particular. I know all about what Europeans have to say about this issue.
Talk to me guys!
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Old 11-06-2009, 12:14 PM   #22
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Cause: Some people are crazy. No way to ID them all.

My state (NH) just had some kids decide to randomly enter someones home at night and kill whoever they found. They used machetes and knives.
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Old 11-06-2009, 12:53 PM   #23
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And don't forget one other basic fact: Some people are just born genetically predisposed to be more resilient than others, which is why one kid from the hood with drugs and violence around survives and thrives and another gets beaten down by his surroundings.
I did read that this murderer's parents objected to his entering the military at all; possibly, with no familial support and his being from a very clannish nationality in America, he most likely felt like an outcast to some degree even in his own family and nationality of origin. Add a war within his "own" group that he identifies with, obviously, more with than the Americans he grew up with, and you have a prescription for potential disaster from someone that has less internal strength and stability than others. Just IMHO.
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Old 11-06-2009, 02:01 PM   #24
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I think there is a broad assumption that many "troubled youth" should join the military because they are good at "straightening them out".........it doesn't always work.....

Not to say this guy was a troubled youth, but obviously the folks at Walter Reed didn't think very highly of his performance........
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Old 11-06-2009, 02:26 PM   #25
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Another thing about promotions. Promotion to Major is usually done by a board. The most recent performance review that board see may be close to a year old. Then if selected, it may be another year before an officer actually pins on his rank. So a recent poor review may not even have been seen or considered by the board, and in fact may have been received after promotion. His attitude and performance could have changed dramatically between selection and the poor review. I believe there is a procedure to stop a promotion before one actually pins on rank, but I am not sure a single poor review would do it.
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Old 11-06-2009, 05:24 PM   #26
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First, I feel awful about this it is as bad as the school yard shootings.

I have watched with some disgust as the much of the media has tiptoed around the elephant in the room (especially early in the reporting). The Major is a devout and evidently religious Muslim.

I watched this ex-JAG officer get pummeled on Larry King yesterday for suggesting that his religion played a factor. the JAG officer discussing his views here .
One of his main points was that as Major he out ranked 95% of the soldiers, and as doctor he would have even higher status. The JAG finds it unlikely that he suffered much in the way of harassment.

Question for you vets. How likely is it that Hassan, would not pose for photos with woman, be harassed? On one hand I'm thinking of Major Frank Burns from MASH, on the other hand he had only been base 4 months, and I don't think hazing is common in the medical field outside TV sitcoms.
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Old 11-06-2009, 07:35 PM   #27
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Ok, I am going to speak of an Air Force Squadron. Lt's maybe jurnior Capt's get harassed. It is all in fun, mostly a nickname or something. It does not go on all the time, unless the individual fights it. I remember one Lt. that got the nickname of Eeyore. He hated it, and tried to change it by telling people another nickname. The more fought the more the nickname stuck. I can not fathom a junior officer or enlisted harassing a senior officer. I can't fathom a senior officer i.e Lt. Col. or above harassing a junior officer. Harassment may be in the eye of the harassed, but I also don't see someone being harassed over the religion.
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Old 11-06-2009, 08:07 PM   #28
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Cause: Some people are crazy. No way to ID them all.

My state (NH) just had some kids decide to randomly enter someones home at night and kill whoever they found. They used machetes and knives.

Talking about the case near Amherst, NH? Some of my family is from that area and having a hard time dealing.
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Old 11-06-2009, 08:35 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by vicente solano View Post
I donīt want to be controversial, but we Spaniards canīt understand how something like this can happen in the country whose military and psychology expertise we admire and learn from.
Iīd like to hear the US version of the causes of these episodes, not only this one in particular. I know all about what Europeans have to say about this issue.
Talk to me guys!
I am an American and I cannot even start to explain why something like this would happen. I got sick to my stomach when I watched this on the news last night. I pray for all the friends and relatives. Somebody just did not pay attention to this nut when he was giving signals that he was crazy. I have my thoughts on all of this but I will keep them locked up in my mind and not share them. oldtrig
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Old 11-07-2009, 01:46 AM   #30
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I am an American and I cannot even start to explain why something like this would happen. I got sick to my stomach when I watched this on the news last night. I pray for all the friends and relatives. Somebody just did not pay attention to this nut when he was giving signals that he was crazy. I have my thoughts on all of this but I will keep them locked up in my mind and not share them. oldtrig
oldtrig: I hope I havent offended you. Just wanted to know what US people my age thought.
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Old 11-07-2009, 07:17 AM   #31
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No you have not offended me. I would like to know the same questions you ask. The people here in the US are outraged that something like this could happen. Somewhere in the past I would 100% bet you that this man displayed something in his personality that would signal this could happen. It was probably overlooked. I would like to know why the military missed this ? I was in the military during the Vietnam war. I know first had how combat effects people.
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Old 11-07-2009, 07:17 AM   #32
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vicente, I don't know the causes either but I have an hypothesis (which might or might not be correct).

Mental health has become quite a problem in the U.S. (in my opinion). Fifty years ago, the insane would be institutionalized and kept away from the general public. Now, it seems like most of them are medicated and then allowed to live independently out in the community like everybody else.

I have heard that incorrect dosages of some anti-depressants can cause bad reactions, and although nobody has said these medications were involved in any of these cases, maybe they were?

Some of the mentally ill need to be institutionalized for the protection of themselves and others, in my opinion. Perhaps due to the expense, this is not happening as often any more.

Some mentally ill people can seem OK to others who do not know them well and are not trained in mental health care. So, a neighbor might say "He seemed fine to me before he did this!" but that means very little.
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Old 11-07-2009, 07:25 AM   #33
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Want2retire, way to go two more days I see. That is great
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Old 11-07-2009, 10:44 AM   #34
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Old 11-07-2009, 12:22 PM   #35
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Aside from the killing, can you imagine coming back from Afghanistan or Iraq and being pretty messed up and need to see a psychiatrist and the person you see is a middle eastern Muslim!?!?!

I'd be sitting thinking "Is this a joke...you guys are kidding me...right?"
The wonder of our country is that we are all Americans first.

Soldiers returning from world war II did not react that way to Americans of German or Italian descent, and rightly so. There are many Americans of middle-east descent who fight shoulder to shoulder with Americans of other descents. We're all Americans first.

This was the work of one man and he, and he only, should be held responsible.

I am a naturalized American and am very proud of it. It also makes me extra-sensitive to comments like these.
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Old 11-07-2009, 01:19 PM   #36
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This was the work of one man and he, and he only, should be held responsible.

I am a naturalized American and am very proud of it. It also makes me extra-sensitive to comments like these.

I agree with you 100% that generalizing traits across broad groups (ethnic, religious, etc.) is wrong. We do have to live with the fact that being politically correct can lead to under-investigating suspicious behavior if that investigation might be interpreted as "profiling." Personally, I hope we continue to err on the side of protecting individual's personal rights, privacy and freedoms.

Here, "suspicious" behavior by the accused was noted prior to this incident but investigations apparently did not occur. I don't have a problem with this as it's a price we pay for personal privacy and freedom.

Please understand, I'm literally sickened by this incident. But the suggestion of "tightening things up" does not appeal to me either.
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Old 11-07-2009, 01:20 PM   #37
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I am a naturalized American and am very proud of it. It also makes me extra-sensitive to comments like these.
I have mentioned before that my direct ancestor on my father's side came to this continent in 1655 as a guest of Oliver Cromwell -- in chains, in the hold of a ship to be deposited as a slave to a tobacco plantation in the Caribbean. The direct ancestors on my mother's side include five women who came to this Continent between 1645 and 1670 -- transportaion taken care of by the Sun King. That gives me some right to be here (albeit a very weak one) -- a privilege I don't take lightly.

Nevertheless (and in spite of), I am no less sensitive to this issue than walkinwood.

Food for thought can be found in this book: Identity And Violence: The Illusion of Destiny.

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Civilizational or religious partioning of the world population yields a "solitarist" approach to human identity ... A solitarist approach can be a good way of misunderstanding nearly everyone in the world. In our normal lives, we see ourselves as members of a variety of groups -- we belong to all of them. The same person can be, without contradiction, an American citizen, of Caribbean origin, with African ancestry, a Christian, a liberal, a woman, a vegetarian, a long-distance runner, a historian, a school teacher, a novelist, a feminist, a heterosexual, a believer in gay and lesbian rights, a theater lover, an environmental activist, a tennis fan, a jazz musician, and someone who is deeply committed to the view that there are intelligent beings in outer space with whom it is extremely urgent to talk (preferably in English). Each of these collectives, to all of which this person simultaneously belongs, give a person a particular identity. None of them can be taken to be the person's only identity or singular membership category.
On the other hand, that attitude makes for great music (I am sorry I could only find it here -- it starts at about 5:21):



or if you just want the lyrics:

PETER TOSH - AFRICAN LYRICS
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Old 11-07-2009, 01:55 PM   #38
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Question for you vets. How likely is it that Hassan, would not pose for photos with woman, be harassed? On one hand I'm thinking of Major Frank Burns from MASH, on the other hand he had only been base 4 months, and I don't think hazing is common in the medical field outside TV sitcoms.
"Harassed" as in "verbally teased in public to the point of face-blushing embarrassment"? Absolutely.

"Harassed" as in "physically assaulted"? It still happens, but that's a UCMJ offense. Unlikely someone would risk their career for the sake of making a point like that.

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Ok, I am going to speak of an Air Force Squadron. Lt's maybe jurnior Capt's get harassed. It is all in fun, mostly a nickname or something. It does not go on all the time, unless the individual fights it. I remember one Lt. that got the nickname of Eeyore. He hated it, and tried to change it by telling people another nickname. The more fought the more the nickname stuck. I can not fathom a junior officer or enlisted harassing a senior officer.
Submariners are a small inbred, tight group where one person's action (or inaction) has a disproportionally large effect. So we're always pushing each other to find weaknesses that might let down the crew-- freezing under stress, not remembering emergency procedures, too many mistakes. Tact is generally in short supply and frank criticism is much more abundant than what the rest of society would consider "polite". It's a volunteer job, so people who can't hack it don't like it are free to leave.

Even as an O-4 I had a particular E-6 who'd say "Sir, can I ask a question?" in a very respectful tone of voice... but as I'd told him (and others) several times, when he asked it that way I could tell that I was about to get my ass chewed out. Of course he was usually correct in his query.

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I can not fathom a junior officer or enlisted harassing a senior officer.
I've rarely seen it, and it usually involved alcohol or a loss of temper.

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I can't fathom a senior officer i.e Lt. Col. or above harassing a junior officer.
In the Navy they're called "screamers", and they're quite common.

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Harassment may be in the eye of the harassed, but I also don't see someone being harassed over the religion.
That's the root of the problem-- even if people are harassing someone because of one aspect of their personality or behavior, that person may decide it's because of some other issue. Or if some action is taken against a person for a legitimate reason, it may still be seen by them as harassment.
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Old 11-07-2009, 02:10 PM   #39
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I would bet money that the folks he killed were not the ones that 'harassed' him!
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Old 11-07-2009, 04:05 PM   #40
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Talking about the case near Amherst, NH? Some of my family is from that area and having a hard time dealing.
Yeah. Lots of people are installing home alarms and looking at getting a dog.

I don't think I was harrassed in the Army, other than by Drill Sargeants and fome TAC Officers (in OCS). I'd never put up with it anyways. Part of the reason I always got promoted at max time in grade. You can only tell so many O6s to "kiss my ass" before it catches up to you.

I've seen some harrassment of like ranked individuals, above and beyond the good natured ribbing that usually happens. One guy usually gets singled out as the whipping boy. Usually its over something they did. I have not really seen it race related.

My experience was all National Guard time tho, with maybe 1 year of active duty training. I really didn't see too much race related issues and thought everyone did a great job of getting along given the wide range of people stuck together.
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