Join Early Retirement Today
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 11-07-2009, 06:50 PM   #41
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
redduck's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: yonder
Posts: 2,059
[QUOTE=Want2retire;873156]

I have heard that incorrect dosages of some anti-depressants can cause bad reactions, and although nobody has said these medications were involved in any of these cases, maybe they were?

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Ah, I think we'll see the "Twinkie Defense" here. Only this time we'll hear that the doc overmedicated himself or mixed up his meds.

And, even if the FBI was curious about this guy, I don't imagine that they (or anyone else) could have predicted he'd go postal--maybe eventually dangerous in other ways, but docs (as far as know are not known for shooting down people (Doc Holiday might be exception).
__________________

__________________
redduck is offline   Reply With Quote
Join the #1 Early Retirement and Financial Independence Forum Today - It's Totally Free!

Are you planning to be financially independent as early as possible so you can live life on your own terms? Discuss successful investing strategies, asset allocation models, tax strategies and other related topics in our online forum community. Our members range from young folks just starting their journey to financial independence, military retirees and even multimillionaires. No matter where you fit in you'll find that Early-Retirement.org is a great community to join. Best of all it's totally FREE!

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest so you have limited access to our community. Please take the time to register and you will gain a lot of great new features including; the ability to participate in discussions, network with our members, see fewer ads, upload photographs, create a retirement blog, send private messages and so much, much more!

Old 11-07-2009, 06:58 PM   #42
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
RonBoyd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Denver, Colorado
Posts: 5,280
[QUOTE=redduck;873289]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Want2retire View Post
but docs (as far as know are not known for shooting down people (Doc Holiday might be exception).
Doc Holliday - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Quote:
Biographer Karen Holliday Tanner states that of Holliday's 17 known and recorded arrests, only one (1879, Mike Gordon in New Mexico) was for murder. Actually, Tanner is incorrect, since Holliday was arrested and jailed for murder in connection with both the O.K. Corral fight, and later for the murder of Frank Stilwell. However, in neither case was Holliday successfully charged...
__________________

__________________
"It's tough to make predictions, especially when it involves the future." ~Attributed to many
"In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. But, in practice, there is." ~(perhaps by) Yogi Berra
"Those who have knowledge, don't predict. Those who predict, don't have knowledge."~ Lau tzu
RonBoyd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-07-2009, 07:07 PM   #43
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
HFWR's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Lawn chair in Texas
Posts: 12,964
I'm quite willing to let the investigation lead where it may.

Warning: this is a rash generalization...

I've noted that the professional ranks at megacorps rarely if ever exhibit obvious xenophobic/racist behavior. But if you get down to the hourly sheeple, it's so prevalent that it makes me uncomfortable. And angry.

Last fall, before the election, I had a friend tell me that Obama wasn't "one of us".

Africans, Hispanics, Arabs, homosexuals...

There's still a lot of ignorance bigotry out there...
__________________
Have Funds, Will Retire

...not doing anything of true substance...
HFWR is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-07-2009, 08:57 PM   #44
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
HFWR's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Lawn chair in Texas
Posts: 12,964
Quote:
Originally Posted by HFWR View Post
I'm quite willing to let the investigation lead where it may.

Blah, blah, blah...
CHP
__________________
Have Funds, Will Retire

...not doing anything of true substance...
HFWR is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-07-2009, 11:09 PM   #45
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
clifp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 7,450
Quote:
Originally Posted by redduck View Post


Ah, I think we'll see the "Twinkie Defense" here. Only this time we'll hear that the doc overmedicated himself or mixed up his meds.

And, even if the FBI was curious about this guy, I don't imagine that they (or anyone else) could have predicted he'd go postal--maybe eventually dangerous in other ways, but docs (as far as know are not known for shooting down people (Doc Holiday might be exception).
While Docs don't generally kill people directly,they do seem to be important members of Islamic fanatic groups.

From Tom Gross
Quote:
As I happened to write earlier this week, doctors have a long history of playing keys roles in terrorist movements. Among them, Al-Qaeda’s number 2 and (terror) operations chief, Egyptian-born Ayman al-Zawahiri, who is a qualified surgeon; Dr. Abd al-Aziz Rantissi the mastermind behind Hamas suicide bombings; and Dr. George Habash, the leader of the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine (PFLP), the instigator of many airline hijackings in the late 1960s and 1970s, and responsible for the deaths of dozens of passengers.
__________________
clifp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-08-2009, 06:59 AM   #46
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
vicente solano's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 1,116
Nut cases that nobody has detected abound everywhere.
My plastic surgeon and his nurse were shot dead by a disgruntled patient that, right after the deed got himnself killed when accidentally crashed his runaway car. BTW the killer interrupted a series of surgery interventions I had to undergo.
Recently a resident female doctor knifed to death another doctor and a nurse, both resident colleagues of her, in the very hospital. She suffered from severe paranoia, a fact known by fellow doctors and staff in general. Even by the management.
Can you top this one for lack of foreknowledge by experts-not sure if this word exists?
The excuse given by the management was that despite knowing her illness they had kept her as a practising resident so as not deteriorate her condition.....
__________________
I get by with a little help from my friends....ta ta ta ta ta...
vicente solano is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-09-2009, 12:21 AM   #47
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
Ed_The_Gypsy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: the City of Subdued Excitement
Posts: 5,293
vincente,

going back to your original post, this is a HUGE country--over 300 million people. It is one of the most complex societies in history. It is a crazy place with many problems, many that are chronic, originating from before the birth of the country. It is NOT a perfect place.

Please also be aware the US is not portrayed accurately in movies and television. Our entertainment industry delivers a very distorted and simplified view of the United States. I don't think the news media does much better.

The American military is also very large and tries not to exclude groups as it once did. Staffing the military is a tough job, especially these days.

Please note that the military understands that these problems can occur. They had specially trained police who successfully addressed the situation.
__________________
my bumpersticker:
"I am not in a hurry.
I am retired.
And I don't care how big your truck is."
Ed_The_Gypsy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-09-2009, 12:22 AM   #48
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
Ed_The_Gypsy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: the City of Subdued Excitement
Posts: 5,293
Quote:
While Docs don't generally kill people directly,they do seem to be important members of Islamic fanatic groups.
clifp,

Remember that Fidel Castro and Che Guevara were both doctors.
__________________
my bumpersticker:
"I am not in a hurry.
I am retired.
And I don't care how big your truck is."
Ed_The_Gypsy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-09-2009, 12:27 AM   #49
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
Ed_The_Gypsy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: the City of Subdued Excitement
Posts: 5,293
Quote:
We can fixate on all the evil and bad things, but I think we should at least acknowledge that there are many more Kim Munley's in this nation than there are Nidal Hasans.
Damn straight!

Sad to say, I don't see many up here in Canada. Some; not many.
__________________
my bumpersticker:
"I am not in a hurry.
I am retired.
And I don't care how big your truck is."
Ed_The_Gypsy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-09-2009, 06:33 AM   #50
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
vicente solano's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 1,116
Ed : I hope you -and all the posters- donīt get annoyed by my frequent questions about all things American. Always bear in mind that I like your country, that like mine -as you say- arenīt perfect.
__________________
I get by with a little help from my friends....ta ta ta ta ta...
vicente solano is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-09-2009, 06:53 AM   #51
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 3,323
Considering this shooter was a Major and a Psychiatrist, he seems to be the epitome of the old phrase, "Physician: Heal thyself."
__________________
Please consider adopting a rescue animal. So very many need a furr-ever home and someone to love them! And if we all spay/neuter our pets there won't be an overpopulation to put to death.
Orchidflower is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-09-2009, 07:38 AM   #52
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
RonBoyd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Denver, Colorado
Posts: 5,280
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed_The_Gypsy View Post
clifp,

Remember that Fidel Castro and Che Guevara were both doctors.
Are you suggesting that RichInTampa, for instance, should be placed on some sort of "watch" list? Don't the Mods have enough to do?
__________________
"It's tough to make predictions, especially when it involves the future." ~Attributed to many
"In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. But, in practice, there is." ~(perhaps by) Yogi Berra
"Those who have knowledge, don't predict. Those who predict, don't have knowledge."~ Lau tzu
RonBoyd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-09-2009, 08:34 AM   #53
Moderator
Walt34's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Eastern WV Panhandle
Posts: 16,539
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leonidas View Post
He grew to understand us as a group and he adopted a philosophy that we were all a "little crazy" because of our experiences at w*rk. His goal was to get us to examine why we reacted to some things the way we did, and through that understanding come to realize when we needed help and when it was just a natural and healthy reaction to being exposed to violence and death so often.
Dealing with that is what makes some appear to be "hardened". It's the process of finding that line between caring enough to want to do a good job but not "bringing it home with you." That's the "burnout phase" that about 80% go through.

How else, for example, to reconcile dealing with spending Christmas Eve with the family of a man who has chosen to end his life by eating a 12-gauge and then spend Christmas Day with your family? That felt like something right out of the Twilight Zone.
__________________
I heard the call to do nothing. So I answered it.
Walt34 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-09-2009, 09:59 AM   #54
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Leonidas's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Where the stars at night are big and bright
Posts: 2,847
Quote:
Originally Posted by Walt34 View Post
How else, for example, to reconcile dealing with spending Christmas Eve with the family of a man who has chosen to end his life by eating a 12-gauge and then spend Christmas Day with your family? That felt like something right out of the Twilight Zone.
I think every cop in America must have a 12-gauge suicide story that involves vivid imagery that can't be repeated in public. I have one that I wasn't even there for, but when I heard the sergeant in charge describe what he saw at that moment, well, I'll say that it was such a vivid description that I can't buy a pot roast at the butcher's and toss it in the grocery cart without having the same picture pop in my head. And it's been ten years since the incident.

Sometimes when that picture pops in my head I chuckle or smile, because I'm reacting as someone who maintains sanity by denying the normal human reaction to grisly and horrific things. If you're going to live a life that frequently exposes you to that kind of sight you have to how to separate it from your "real" life. It's dark humor, not something normal for regular people who seldom see such things. Every now and then the thought sobers me a little, and I have to remember that it really had nothing to do with me, that it was another man's bad choice in a tough spot. One of too many such things I have been exposed to, and I have to trivialize the tragedy to weaken its impact, or I would be debilitated from sorrow.

Things that work really well out there on the seamy side of life are non-starters at home. People with healthy adaptations find ways to get that w*rk personality all shut down and put to bed before interacting with la familia. And the healthy individual knows how to keep that personality turned off and not let normal stressful situations produce a w*rk-type response.

Being suspicious that every word you hear is a lie, or being prepared to turn a "no" into a "yes" by laying on off hands are totally legitimate tactics on the streets of the big bad city when justified, but are huge leaps into disaster-land if you apply them in your personal life. There were times in my family/personal life when I saw the cop personality trying to come out and I had to struggle to keep that bastard suppressed. On the streets it's all about "Git R Done" and at home it's all about maintaining the relationships.

Our pshrink said that healthy people can usually see the stress coming on and put Mr. Policeman back in his closet before they let him have his way. The people who can't do that are just maladaptive and need to go find another occupation. But he always cautioned about the surprise attacks that some situations could bring on in unexpected ways. Like the guy whose wife called in and said she was finding her husband laying on the floor of their daughter's bedroom; curled into the fetal position sobbing uncontrollably. The officer couldn't explain what was happening other than whenever he came home from work he would go to kiss his sleeping daughter and was repeatedly struck by a debilitating sense of loss and grief.

The ignition source for that guy's problems turned out to be a pair of shoes very popular with young girls like his daughter. Also popular with another young girl, the victim of a violent death, whose body he had seen in situ while working the investigation of her death - and she had been wearing the exact same shoes. The pshrink finally figured out that the guy's subconscious was making the connection, via the shoes, between his daughter and the dead girl. He would go in to kiss his daughter and see those same shoes and be struck by misplaced feelings that he couldn't figure out the cause much less control his reactions.

The message I took away from that was that no matter how good we are at separating w*rk stuff from home that our subconscious will sometimes win out. You wind up putting your whole family into the Twilight Zone. I got really good at apologizing before I got a better grip on why I sometimes reacted too strongly to what was not that big of a deal.

I don't know what rang this Hasan dude's bell and turned him into a mass murderer. I suspect, from what I've read, that he had closed himself off to so many support systems that he just became a one-issue kind of guy. His parents were dead (and they were against his military career), he had no wife or girlfriend, the few friends that have been mentioned don't seem like the bossom buddy types at all, and he was obsessed with his religion. It came down to the only "roles" he had in his life were the Army and Islam, and eventually he found himself in a spot in which those two roles were in direct conflict. There were no shades of gray for this guy. He couldn't see any good in one role and totally misidentified that dark side of the other and embraced it.

Even though his role in the military was totally non-combat and as rear echelon as you can get; he only saw that he was part of a machine that was killing Muslims. He didn't see them as terrorists who happened to be Muslim, he just saw Muslims as victims. And his role as a religious man bought into the dark side of the religion, the one that says it must be protected and that martyrdom is not only acceptable but glorious. He had two personalities, two life-roles, both of which he had distorted so far that they were in direct opposition and at war with each other.

IMO Hasan latched on to what he perceived as bad about his role as a soldier and was saddened and the enraged by it. He also latched on to that which normal people easily recognize as the bad in Islam and glorified in it. That's a balancing act that nobody could maintain, and was crazy to try it, or the trying drove him insane. In either case, he had his own Twilight Zone episode all to himself.
__________________
There is no pleasure in having nothing to do; the fun is having lots to do and not doing it. - Andrew Jackson
Leonidas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-09-2009, 10:09 AM   #55
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
RonBoyd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Denver, Colorado
Posts: 5,280
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leonidas View Post
I think every cop in America must have a 12-gauge suicide story that involves vivid imagery that can't be repeated in public. ...
Wow! What an impressive post. Very thought provoking. Thank you.
__________________
"It's tough to make predictions, especially when it involves the future." ~Attributed to many
"In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. But, in practice, there is." ~(perhaps by) Yogi Berra
"Those who have knowledge, don't predict. Those who predict, don't have knowledge."~ Lau tzu
RonBoyd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-09-2009, 05:05 PM   #56
Recycles dryer sheets
LoftyNotions's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Billings
Posts: 96
Thanks Leo. That was an excellent post.
__________________
LoftyNotions is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-10-2009, 01:22 AM   #57
Dryer sheet aficionado
SciFiFan53's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Columbus
Posts: 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by clifp View Post
How likely is it that Hassan, would not pose for photos with woman, be harassed? On one hand I'm thinking of Major Frank Burns from MASH, on the other hand he had only been base 4 months, and I don't think hazing is common in the medical field outside TV sitcoms.
I wonder if his "not wanting to pose with women" had to do with the kind of women he liked to hang out with.....
Hasan Enjoyed Strippers, Witness Says - CBS News
Also saw another newstory today about a former classmate that told about a rant he gave during a class - about justifying jihad. Sounds as if there were plenty of warning signs, but hindsight is always 20/20.
It's difficult to believe we have this kind of person (I know he is an aberration) in any kind of position responsible for "helping" our service men and women. I think it's probably due to the shortage of qualified people as pointed out by other posters.
While I agree that something is seriously wrong with him mentally, I don't want to see him be able to use an insanity defense. IMHO, personal responsibility needs to become important again. You do the crime, you take the punishment.
__________________
SciFiFan53 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-10-2009, 10:58 AM   #58
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Bimmerbill's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,631
Shocking, someone in the Army enjoys strippers?
I guess I don't consider that out of the ordinary.
__________________
Bimmerbill is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-10-2009, 06:32 PM   #59
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 11,018
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leonidas View Post
I don't know what rang this Hasan dude's bell and turned him into a mass murderer. I suspect, from what I've read, that he had closed himself off to so many support systems that he just became a one-issue kind of guy. His parents were dead (and they were against his military career), he had no wife or girlfriend, the few friends that have been mentioned don't seem like the bossom buddy types at all, and he was obsessed with his religion. It came down to the only "roles" he had in his life were the Army and Islam, and eventually he found himself in a spot in which those two roles were in direct conflict. There were no shades of gray for this guy. He couldn't see any good in one role and totally misidentified that dark side of the other and embraced it.

Even though his role in the military was totally non-combat and as rear echelon as you can get; he only saw that he was part of a machine that was killing Muslims. He didn't see them as terrorists who happened to be Muslim, he just saw Muslims as victims. And his role as a religious man bought into the dark side of the religion, the one that says it must be protected and that martyrdom is not only acceptable but glorious. He had two personalities, two life-roles, both of which he had distorted so far that they were in direct opposition and at war with each other.

IMO Hasan latched on to what he perceived as bad about his role as a soldier and was saddened and the enraged by it. He also latched on to that which normal people easily recognize as the bad in Islam and glorified in it. That's a balancing act that nobody could maintain, and was crazy to try it, or the trying drove him insane. In either case, he had his own Twilight Zone episode all to himself.
You may well be right. And whether you are right or not, your analysis is reasoned and nonjudgmental. Well done Leonidas.
__________________
Meadbh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-10-2009, 09:38 PM   #60
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
clifp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 7,450
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bimmerbill View Post
Shocking, someone in the Army enjoys strippers?
I guess I don't consider that out of the ordinary.
Me neither.

It seems to me there are three like explanations for Mr. Hassan.

1. He is a garden variety sociopath.

2. He just snapped. Leonidas analysis of how and why this may have occurred is better than anything I could come up with and I dare say better than most of the talking heads on TV.

3. He is a Islamic Jihadist.

Personally, I am leaning toward #3. I am not sure it all that productive trying to figure out why someone chose that path. While I think it is popular to believe that Jihadist are poor ignorant Arab kids brainwashed in Madrasas. The reality is more complicated. In the last decade we have seen tens of thousand of Jihadist warriors engage in suicidal attacks.
These folks have come from scores of countries including many Western one. They have had a wide variety backgrounds of rich and poor, young and old, educated and ignorant. We have even seen a few in the US military.

Karl Marx called religion the "opiate for the masses" . While I think that much good comes from religion. It seems to me that radical, violent strains of Islam, like Wahhab, are indeed a very powerful drug. Once under its influence people can and will do crazy dangerous things.
__________________

__________________
clifp is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Prayers For Fort Hood TX Cruisinthru Other topics 6 11-09-2009 12:42 AM
Another college shooting and baseball hearings. newguy88 Other topics 19 02-16-2008 10:26 AM
Virginia Tech shooting and gun control FinallyRetired Other topics 187 04-25-2007 02:03 PM
Shooting sports LeatherneckPA Other topics 19 04-19-2007 04:26 PM
Shooting in Toronto. Howard Other topics 12 12-29-2005 04:30 PM

 

 
All times are GMT -6. The time now is 10:47 PM.
 
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.