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Ft. Hood shooting reactions?
Old 11-06-2009, 07:22 AM   #1
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Ft. Hood shooting reactions?

I assume by now most of us have heard about the shootings by a Major in the military at Ft. Hood, Texas, near Killeen, who killed 13 and wounded 30 more. Myself, I just heard about it this morning; and maybe this is not the mature and intellectual response one of my age and ability should have, but I'm just damned mad about the whole thing.
How the heck did someone that became a Major, for gosh sakes, and a Military Psychiatrist be so dysfunctional--without anyone red flagging him--that he became so angry or frighted or was such a nut job OR, possibly, working with others overseas be allowed to stay on the job? I'm just mad.
Please tell me that--after the military interrogates this guy and has a trial--that ultimately he won't get out of this alive and they'll fry him in Ole Sparky.
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Old 11-06-2009, 07:38 AM   #2
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How the heck did someone that became a Major, for gosh sakes, and a Military Psychiatrist be so dysfunctional--without anyone red flagging him--that he became so angry or frighted or was such a nut job OR, possibly, working with others overseas be allowed to stay on the job?

Please tell me that--after the military interrogates this guy and has a trial--that ultimately he won't get out of this alive and they'll fry him in Ole Sparky.
I guess I am still in shock because I am unsure how I feel about this. I have too many questions going through my mind right now -- those you asked and several others.

I do hope, however, that there ends up to be a better explanation than he acted "normally" and needs to be punished. I would prefer (at this moment) to find out what is causing all of these type of situations -- it is happening all too frequently -- and, therefore, cure the cause and not shoot the messenger.
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Old 11-06-2009, 07:56 AM   #3
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I just heard about it on the Today Show this morning. The whole thing just makes me sick to my stomach. And frustrated. Normally, incidents like this don't upset me much, but this case really does because of the guy's position in the military (this should set the case for psychiatrists back some) and his being allowed to stay on the job--despite the FBI having him already for some time on their Watch List. Are we THAT needy and desperate for professionals in the military to keep folks like this on staff?
On second thought, I have some sorrow for those fine Arab-Americans who are upstanding citizens as there is surely going to be some flack they will catch for this, also. When I first was in Houston and, because Houston is an oil and gas town, you heard about the Middle East all the time. An old time family --and long time citizens of Houston who were American ex-military to boot (born and raised in Houston on top of it)--owned a carpet selling and cleaning company for a couple generations with a fine reputation called Baghdad Carpets. Vandals shot up their vans and, I think, front windows to the store to the point the guy went out of business. The reaction to this could turn horrid...sounds of Kristalnacht.
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Old 11-06-2009, 07:57 AM   #4
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It is allowed for under the Uniform Code of Military Justice:
Quote:
918. ART. 118. MURDER

Any person subject to this chapter whom without justification or excuse, unlawfully kills a human being, when he- -

(1) has a premeditated design to kill;

(2) intends to kill or inflict great bodily harm;

(3) is engaged in an act which is inherently dangerous to others and evinces a wanton disregard of human life; or

(4) is engaged in the perpetration or attempted perpetration of burglary, sodomy, rape, robbery, or aggravated arson;

is guilty of murder, and shall suffer such punishment as a court-martial may direct, except that if found guilty under clause (1) or (4), he shall suffer death or imprisonment for life as a court-martial may direct.
I think that historically, until the UCMJ was created in the early 1950's that the military could not impose the death penalty for capital murder committed in the United States during peacetime. And once it was permitted it has rarely been used from what I understand. In fact, military death penalties are rare in general, and I've seen it cited several times that the last service member executed by the military was in 1961. It was briefly found to be unconstitutional in the early 80's, but that opinion was more about some procedural matters that were quickly, and retroactively, fixed.

There was a 1994 case involving a Ft. Hood soldier who went on a murderous crime spree off-base in Killeen, and the Supremes upheld his court martial imposed death sentence. And even that wasn't based on the constitutionality of the death penalty as much as it was yet again based on procedures more than anything.

I have no idea what method of execution the military would use, and it's just a guess on my part that it would be lethal injection.

Now, if they decide to charge him as a civilian under Texas state law and try him in the local district court - you can start picking out a casket for the man.
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Old 11-06-2009, 07:59 AM   #5
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Apparently he had been identified as a potential terrorism risk, due to postings online, and was being watched.

Lot of good that did.
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Old 11-06-2009, 08:16 AM   #6
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Apparently he had been identified as a potential terrorism risk, due to postings online, and was being watched.

Lot of good that did.
Yeah. Seems that question is being asked a lot lately:

After Gruesome Find, Anger at Cleveland Police

Quote:
... residents said they were shocked by the case’s gruesomeness and appalled that a man convicted of attempted rape had apparently been able to hide such heinous crimes, even as the authorities were regularly checking up on him.
And yet, I'll bet these residents protect their own privacy with a vengence.
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Old 11-06-2009, 08:19 AM   #7
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Is this why Killeen is so cheap to buy housing in? Good grief....the place sounds like a killing ground.
Yeah, if the State of Texas gets ahold of this case he'll have NO chance. One of Texas' better qualities.
I had a close friend who was a beautiful woman that worked for a year at Huntsville (Texas' primary killing prison) to use her degree in criminal justice before getting out as a guard (and does she have some doozy stories to tell). We used to have arguments all the time about capitol punishment, which I am a firm believer in when it is an ABSOLUTE that the guy did the murders like this fellow...and Scott Peterson who I wish had killed his wife and baby in Texas and not drag-your-feet California. Some people are SO guilty, and they are just left to use up taxpayers money in prison. So frustrating. (Sorry if this offends those who are against capitol punishment.)
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Old 11-06-2009, 08:23 AM   #8
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Yeah, if the State of Texas gets ahold of this case he'll have NO chance. One of Texas' better qualities.
It's not that he won't have a chance. Even though he was caught in the act and the act was witnessed by dozens of witnesses and it seems like a slam dunk. It's more of a case that we believe in applying the death penalty in heinous cases and we're willing to fund the cost of such trials.

Edit: The Ft. Hood Police Officer who stopped the shooter is Kimberly Munley. She has a twitter site with very few tweets, but I wanted to share this from her bio on her twitter account:
Quote:
I live a good life....a hard one, but I go to sleep peacefully @ night knowing that I may have made a difference in someone's life.
That's what it's all about. We can fixate on all the evil and bad things, but I think we should at least acknowledge that there are many more Kim Munley's in this nation than there are Nidal Hasans.

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Old 11-06-2009, 08:31 AM   #9
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Old 11-06-2009, 08:31 AM   #10
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Lots of questions to be answered and hopefully they will be eventually. This guy was recently promoted from Captain to Major. Why? He recently was also given a poor annual review by his superiors. Then why the promotion? If the FBI had him on a watch list (which I didn't know) why was this guy still in the military? Why? Why was he being preparing for deployment? I don't understand all this.
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Old 11-06-2009, 08:32 AM   #11
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Again, one of Texas' better qualities, Leonidas. And Texas doesn't draaaaag their feet either in these cases unlike it-will-take-20-years-or-more California.
I was a psych major (which qualifies you for little, by the way, as Nords has pointed out correctly before), dated a Psychologist for a couple years, have a few Therapists even today as friends. Some (not all naturally) are more messed up than normal for sure even if on the surface they seem okay. Some have some realllly deep problems hidden from all but those who know them well. I agree with you, Tryan, as to why most go into the field to begin with. Just my observation, too. (On a personal observational level, I've found most in the field to be more passive than anything else. Great observers of life--instead of active, aggressive participants.)

Leonidas: I agree with you, and average citizens like me are so lucky to have people like her in their life--even if we don't know who they are personally. These are the unsung heroes of everyday life that deserve our respect and admiration I agree.
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Old 11-06-2009, 09:40 AM   #12
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....The Ft. Hood Police Officer who stopped the shooter is Kimberly Munley. She has a twitter site with very few tweets, but I wanted to share this from her bio on her twitter account: That's what it's all about. We can fixate on all the evil and bad things, but I think we should at least acknowledge that there are many more Kim Munley's in this nation than there are Nidal Hasans....
From a Yahoo news story::

Quote:
The officer who shot the gunman, Kimberly Munley, also was wounded.
"She happened to encounter the gunman. In an exchange of gunfire, she was wounded but managed to wound him four times," Cone said. "It was an amazing and aggressive performance by this police officer."
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Old 11-06-2009, 09:43 AM   #13
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...and by a woman! I'm proud, anyway....go, Kimberly!
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Old 11-06-2009, 09:59 AM   #14
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...and by a woman! I'm proud, anyway....go, Kimberly!
Yeah, me too. But, again, it happens far too often:

Security guard who stopped shooter credits God

Quote:
"I saw him coming through the doors," she told reporters on Monday. "I took cover, and I waited for him to get closer, and I came out of cover and identified myself, and engaged him, and took him down. And that's pretty much it."
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Old 11-06-2009, 10:04 AM   #15
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One other item gleaned from news last night but needs curious inspection. This individual joined the Army at age 18. It sounds like Uncle Sam payed full eductional expenses for what amounts to an MD specialty education in return for his service. Not much of a human being who is willing to take so much but unwilling to give so little. Considering had he deployed with his skill set he would have been protected at base camp at all times. Coward and thief are a couple of words which comes to my mind.
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Old 11-06-2009, 10:06 AM   #16
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Considering had he deployed with his skill set he would have been protected at base camp at all times.
That's what puzzled me, too. With his education and training, it's not like he would have had an M-16 strapped to his back and out on the front lines.
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Old 11-06-2009, 10:11 AM   #17
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Aside from the killing, can you imagine coming back from Afghanistan or Iraq and being pretty messed up and need to see a psychiatrist and the person you see is a middle eastern Muslim!?!?!

I'd be sitting thinking "Is this a joke...you guys are kidding me...right?"
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Old 11-06-2009, 10:14 AM   #18
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A policewoman steps up and performs her duty 'above and beyond.'

A career military does the equivalent of 'going postal.'

?

heh heh heh - me? A little more nervous about places with crowds - airports, football stadiums, schools, workplaces, etc. .
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Old 11-06-2009, 10:16 AM   #19
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That's what it's all about. We can fixate on all the evil and bad things, but I think we should at least acknowledge that there are many more Kim Munley's in this nation than there are Nidal Hasans.
Good post, Leo. Thanks.

My first reaction to hearing the words "from Fort Hood" was "Oh, crap, that's my nephew's base." My next reaction on learning it happened AT Fort Hood was "Whew, thank goodness my nephew's safe in Iraq."

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Lots of questions to be answered and hopefully they will be eventually. This guy was recently promoted from Captain to Major. Why?
Pretty straightforward. The armed forces are short on personnel. The selection rate from O-3 to O-4 is so high that it practically takes a DUI or a felony conviction (not merely a grand jury indictment) to fail selection. Medical specialists like psychiatrists or surgeons are all but guaranteed rubber-stamp promotion to O-5.

At one point ~10 years ago the submarine force actually had a selection rate from O-3 to O-4 of 107%. The promotion boards were dipping into the guys who'd been passed over before or who were still a year away from eligibility. Eventually BUPERS had to literally order the board members to stop deeping the O-3s to O-4 before they ran out of O-3s to fill the O-3 billets. And in the case of the passed-over O-3s, scooping them up for O-4 a year later was not always the best decision.

When I retired in 2002, submarine O-4 shore-duty billets were 30% short of officers. The solution? Gap all their reliefs for four months. Problem solved!

The DoD promotion guidelines say that O-1s aren't supposed to be promoted to O-2s until they've been commissioned for at least two years. My nephew, an Army Ranger, was adding O-2 to his e-mail signature at the 16-month point. I happen to think that he deserves it, but I suspect that he was also just one of a very large crowd of platoon leaders who were bumped up a bit early.

Keep in mind that we lack perspective. In WWII the average American time-in-rank to O-4 was merely six years (as opposed to today's 9-10). German submarine officers were in command at age 23. The source of today's military attrition is a bit different but the stresses and the results are the same.

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He recently was also given a poor annual review by his superiors. Then why the promotion?
Because "poor" can still be "good enough", particularly when added to "hopes for improvement". Especially when the business is so busy.

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If the FBI had him on a watch list (which I didn't know) why was this guy still in the military?
Due process, especially if he would have been able to claim that he was being subjected to profiling or paranoid harassment. I guess he'd have to move from "watch" to "warning" before abrupt action was considered justifiable.

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Why was he being preparing for deployment? I don't understand all this.
If a marginal performer is struggling to do a job, then one way to make them step up to the challenge is to give them a more challenging job... of course with proper support & supervision. Perform or fail, either way the situation is resolved on their own merits.

Besides there's a perception that the screwups get too many good deals, including not having to do their share of deployments. Whatever flags or problems this guy was demonstrating at Fort Hood, if there even were any, they weren't considered deployment-limiting.

I can understand what his co-workers and "the authorities" were dealing with, and I take this a bit personally. I can completely comprehend how everyone around him felt betrayed and how his chain of command was caught by surprise. Even those professionals probably had no significant warning of how quickly things went bad in his thought processes and of what was about to occur.

I spent nearly five years at a training command where we extensively screened instructors in high-risk courses looking for psychological problems. (The idea was to not put a psychopath in charge of keeping the students alive, or someone who was so stressed out and distracted by their personal issues that they didn't notice a bad situation developing.) One Friday afternoon I had a short "Have a good weekend" conversation with a Navy diver who'd just reported aboard a month ago. He was a star performer: quickly promoted to E-6, a leader at his last sea-duty command, their Sailor of the Year with a rare Navy Commendation Medal, a shoo-in for the next year's Chief Petty Officer selection board. He was at the school to train submariners on Navy diving techniques, a course with significant mental stress and physical risk. We felt pretty darn lucky to have cherry-picked him from some other fast-track duty.

I'd interviewed the guy and been impressed. I'd gotten to know him around the command and been even more impressed. He was officer material, but so good that he'd be a much better asset to the community as a chief petty officer/master diver rather than wasting an officer's commission on him. He had no medical issues (and divers don't get away with hiding that). He'd been signed off by the local Navy psychiatrist, an experienced officer who'd done some work at our command and whose opinions I trusted. The guy was good to go. We joked about our weekend plans and he headed home.

Friday night he tailed his spouse as she drove to the apartment of a man with whom she'd been carrying on a long-term affair while our sailor was deployed. (His last command had been aware of this, and had informed us, but the sailor had told us that he and his spouse were reconciling and working things out on shore duty. It was going well. Thumbs up!) Saturday afternoon, he loaded his two preschool children in his pickup truck. (The youngest was not biologically his child, which we later determined he was aware of and had accepted as part of "saving the marriage".) He drove back to the apartment of the younger child's biological father and entered it, finding his own spouse still there. Our sailor used his personal 9mm automatic, which he had legally obtained & licensed, to shoot the man several times and make him a quadriplegic. (From the subsequent investigation it's thought that this was what the sailor had intended to do, rather than killing him.) He then dragged his spouse out to the parking lot where he shot her in the head in front of the kids, killing her. Next he drove back to his base house, phoning his brother en route to ask him to listen to the radio and pick up his kids later that day.

When he got home he barricaded himself until the SWAT team arrived, sent his kids out, and killed himself with his gun.

While I was at that same command I had two submariners, both literally Sailor of the Year material, one an E-6 and the other a chief petty officer, who committed suicide as a result of similar personally stressful situations. "At least" they didn't kill anyone else in the process.

Once? Bad luck. Twice? It's a problem-- investigate the process and do a bunch of stuff to fix it. Three times? It's not the people and it might not even be the system-- we need better tools to detect these symptoms and correct these problems before it's too late to catch up.
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Old 11-06-2009, 11:18 AM   #20
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Once? Bad luck. Twice? It's a problem-- investigate the process and do a bunch of stuff to fix it. Three times? It's not the people and it might not even be the system-- we need better tools to detect these symptoms and correct these problems before it's too late to catch up.
There is a general lack of understanding about the effects of stress on people. Not that the mental health folks don't understand it, but there are deficiencies in institutions like the military coming to grips with the reality that while some people don't handle stress very well, there are limits to what any human can withstand before being affected.

You can't take young people and plunge them into a life of violence, danger, and making life-or-death decisions one after another and not expect some changes in their reactions and outlook. Maybe the system would better serving itself, and its members, to recognize that everyone will be affected in some way, and everyone needs to get support and treatment as necessary.

I started my career at the same time my employer hired its first pshrink, I was one of the first people he interviewed as part of my pre-employment screening. Over the years I had repeated contact with him (classes he taught, some assignment testing, and a couple of mandatory visits when someone got hurt). He grew to understand us as a group and he adopted a philosophy that we were all a "little crazy" because of our experiences at w*rk. His goal was to get us to examine why we reacted to some things the way we did, and through that understanding come to realize when we needed help and when it was just a natural and healthy reaction to being exposed to violence and death so often.
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