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Future if auto fuel Edison bet Ford
Old 11-28-2013, 08:32 PM   #1
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Future if auto fuel Edison bet Ford

Long ago Ford and Edison made a bet on the fuel source for cars.

Here is a learned fellow eleborating on the subject.
Michio Kaku: Why Batteries Are Primitive - YouTube
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Old 11-28-2013, 08:44 PM   #2
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I can't see electric cars being successful unless they are powered by fuel cells. The best current model, the Tesla, only has a maximum range of 200 miles. That's just not enough to be a replacement for the gasoline engine. The electric motor is the ideal power plant for a car (max torque at 0 rpm). But, barring some amazing break through in battery technology I think it will remain limited to commuter vehicles.
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Old 11-29-2013, 07:26 AM   #3
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I own and love my Volt.......40 miles on battery, backed up by a gasoline engine. Living in California with the federal and state support I save almost enough to make my lease payment when I consider the savings on buying gas compared to the cost of charging it each evening. Fuels cells may be the future.........but not for my generation......they are a long time away from mass production. Now we need a truck with Volt capabilities.
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Old 11-29-2013, 09:49 AM   #4
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This (link) could substantially expand adoption of EV's (more than even quick charging stations all over the place), but I haven't seen the infrastructure economics (has to be a huge investment) and the battery standardization required would be an obvious barrier. And then rural areas will be the last/most expensive/hardest to justify.

Watch Tesla's 90-second electric vehicle battery swap demonstration - SmartPlanet.

Conceptually old technology - utilized by industrial forklifts for decades, though localized.
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Old 11-29-2013, 11:17 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by Midpack View Post
This (link) could substantially expand adoption of EV's (more than even quick charging stations all over the place), but I haven't seen the infrastructure economics (has to be a huge investment) and the battery standardization required would be an obvious barrier. And then rural areas will be the last/most expensive/hardest to justify.

Watch Tesla's 90-second electric vehicle battery swap demonstration - SmartPlanet.

Conceptually old technology - utilized by industrial forklifts for decades, though localized.
I do think the infrastructure economics for swap stations will be a big hurdle. The most affordable EVs will probably have ~ 70 mile range, that covers a high % of most people's driving, so it keeps battery cost down.

But that means that those drivers will only need to swap pretty infrequently. And since even getting to 10% of the cars on the road being EVs is a ways off - you have a small % of a small %. Makes it hard to justify swap stations that are close enough to where you might need them.

If the swap could be handled by the user with less infrastructure, that would help. Like maybe a little wheeled cart that the battery pack would slide out on, and then you wheel in the replacement. Then a few gas stations along routes (and/or WalMarts, hotels, etc) would only need to have enough juice supply to charge the batteries and keep the batteries on hand.

Geez, imagine the inventory nightmare! Again, swapping isn't going to be that frequent, as most people will be able to charge at home for their normal trips. But then there would be big demand on holidays, when people travel by car to visit. So that would be a lot of batteries to keep on hand, and they would sit idle much of the year. 'Grandma, we're gonna be late, they ran out of charged batteries, there's 10 people ahead of us, and they only have enough capacity to fast charge 3 packs at a time - gonna be about 6 hours before they can get us a full one'.

We wouldn't have gas stations as convenient as they are if we could do 19 of 20 'fill ups' at home and only 1 in 10 cars used gasoline. Not enough volume to support them.

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Old 11-30-2013, 02:37 PM   #6
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I own and love my Volt.......40 miles on battery, backed up by a gasoline engine. Living in California with the federal and state support I save almost enough to make my lease payment when I consider the savings on buying gas compared to the cost of charging it each evening. Fuels cells may be the future.........but not for my generation......they are a long time away from mass production. Now we need a truck with Volt capabilities.
While only the future knows if/when e-cars will eventually be successful (after 100+yrs of development ), it rarely turns out well when gov'ts start picking economic winners & losers. After all- ethanol has been touted as a renewable fuel "replacement" for gas back to Henry Ford & Model T.
http://www.nbcnews.com/id/15233556/n.../#.UppNIY11Ehc
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Old 11-30-2013, 03:24 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by Nodak View Post
I can't see electric cars being successful unless they are powered by fuel cells. The best current model, the Tesla, only has a maximum range of 200 miles. That's just not enough to be a replacement for the gasoline engine. The electric motor is the ideal power plant for a car (max torque at 0 rpm). But, barring some amazing break through in battery technology I think it will remain limited to commuter vehicles.
The 60 kWh Tesla has a range of about 200, the 85 kWh has a range of 265.
We use it for all of our driving, commuting, errands, night out on the town, and vacations.
While I appreciate that won't cover all of everybody's needs, it does ours. And by the end of the year there should be about 180,000 others in the USA for whom it works as well.

As for government interference, I do wish we could get rid of all subsidies.
Until we get rid of the oil subsidies, I am not going to complain about alternative fuels also getting some.
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Old 11-30-2013, 03:56 PM   #8
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The 60 kWh Tesla has a range of about 200, the 85 kWh has a range of 265.
We use it for all of our driving, commuting, errands, night out on the town, and vacations.
While I appreciate that won't cover all of everybody's needs, it does ours. And by the end of the year there should be about 180,000 others in the USA for whom it works as well.

As for government interference, I do wish we could get rid of all subsidies.
Until we get rid of the oil subsidies, I am not going to complain about alternative fuels also getting some.
I've enjoyed reading your hands on observations.

What do you do when you take a trip that's out of range for your Model S? You also have or rent an ICE vehicle, either to drive to or rent at the vacation location? We're just trying to figure out how we'd really use a Tesla v3 in our lives which include the occasional trip of more than safe range. DW wants an EV soon, but it seems we'll have to have an ICE and an EV, but we already have two hybrids so not unreasonable.

And your subsidy comment is entirely fair. Too many folks like to protest alternative fuel subsidies without acknowledging oil subsidies or vice versa - petty given that more often than not they're knowingly lying by omission...
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Old 11-30-2013, 04:32 PM   #9
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And your subsidy comment is entirely fair. Too many folks like to protest alternative fuel subsidies without acknowledging oil subsidies or vice versa - petty given that more often than not they're knowingly lying by omission...
I'm not sure that is a fair assessment or assumption. I'm against all subsidies generally, and I actually think most who complain about the EV subsidies feel the same about any oil subsidies. But two wrongs don't make a right.

I don't think that skipping mentioning it every time the subject comes up is petty or lying. It is simply skipping mentioning it every time the subject comes up, nothing more. Why assume otherwise?

-ERD50
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Old 11-30-2013, 04:33 PM   #10
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We have always been a two car household. Until this spring it was one EV and one hybrid/PHEV.
This spring we realized we had both been avoiding driving, if at all possible, the PHEV so we are now a two EV family.
Tomorrow we actually had a trip planned taking us beyond EV range. For that we had arranged to trade vehicles with our neighbor. So while we are driving an ICE, an ICE driver will get a shot with an EV.

All of our other trips are either within 150 miles, or we take a flight. Although we take few long trips.
Next year, the superchargers will be built out such that we will no longer need to drive anything other than our Tesla unless we go overseas.
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