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Old 01-09-2011, 05:30 PM   #21
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I have lived in AZ for 38 years and love it here. Sad to see that some in national media (Navarette - CNN.com) are indicting all in AZ for this. There are many, many wonderful people of all stripes down here. WE will all get through this
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Old 01-09-2011, 05:43 PM   #22
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I truly hope that this was a random act of a lone, deranged man. It is too depressing to think that there may be more to it.

What an awful day for the country!
I think it is usually an unstable person who goes to this level of extreme action, but the society that stokes the fires of an unstable person (on any side of political spectrum) with extreme rhettoric gives them something to latch onto.
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Old 01-09-2011, 05:49 PM   #23
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I have lived in AZ for 38 years and love it here. Sad to see that some in national media (Navarette - CNN.com) are indicting all in AZ for this. There are many, many wonderful people of all stripes down here. WE will all get through this
Yeah, sure. That's what you all say. (I remember this from the 9-11 days.)
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Old 01-09-2011, 06:02 PM   #24
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Its a horrible tragedy. I pray for all of the victims and hope the survivors recover fully. I also hope this doesn't disuede politicians from holding these events or their constituents from attending in the future.

As for the politics that will surely be interjected into this story (not here necessarily), it doesn't matter whether this guy was a right wing wacko, left wing wacko, Tea Partier, PETA member, immigration activist, gun nut, disgruntled voter or just good 'ol insane. Deciding to harm another human being except in self defense or defense of another in imminent danger, whatever the reason, is wrong. Sick people do sick things and to try and use something like this to further a political point of view is inexcusable.

I have no doubt many will try, however.
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Old 01-09-2011, 06:58 PM   #25
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Its a horrible tragedy. I pray for all of the victims and hope the survivors recover fully. I also hope this doesn't disuede politicians from holding these events or their constituents from attending in the future.

As for the politics that will surely be interjected into this story (not here necessarily), it doesn't matter whether this guy was a right wing wacko, left wing wacko, Tea Partier, PETA member, immigration activist, gun nut, disgruntled voter or just good 'ol insane. Deciding to harm another human being except in self defense or defense of another in imminent danger, whatever the reason, is wrong. Sick people do sick things and to try and use something like this to further a political point of view is inexcusable.

I have no doubt many will try, however.
Flyflishnevada, I think much the same as you dude. Let's try to learn from this.
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Old 01-09-2011, 08:38 PM   #26
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How insane can you be if you plan and executed mass murder so methodically? He bought the gun and then picked out his targets very carefully. Sounds very sane to me. He is probably motivated by some warped political or religious view just like terrorists who strap bombs on them and blow up people. We don't think those terrorists are all insance, I hope.
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Old 01-09-2011, 08:58 PM   #27
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I was watching the press conference with Rep. Giffords' medical team today. Their explicit description of the surgical procedure wasn't for the faint of heart, but was interesting. One usually thinks a point blank bullet to the head means certain death. I guess that's no longer true with today's medicine.
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Old 01-10-2011, 02:09 AM   #28
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How insane can you be if you plan and executed mass murder so methodically? He bought the gun and then picked out his targets very carefully. Sounds very sane to me. He is probably motivated by some warped political or religious view just like terrorists who strap bombs on them and blow up people. We don't think those terrorists are all insance, I hope.

I do not believe it was either.

Our local paper (Tucson) stated he had a statement on his Facebook that he wanted to/or/ was going to kill someone, probably a policeman. He had a history of violence and drug use. One of the young men that wrestled him to the ground stated that the killer had a pleased look on his face. It appears to me he was looking for anyone of authority to murder. Gabbi was unfortunately the one he chose to target.
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Old 01-10-2011, 10:06 AM   #29
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If I was religious, those affected by this senseless act of violence would be in my prayers.

From a cursory review of Loughner's youTube vid, I'd say he's a delusional socio/psychopath. Any link to "outside" influences is tenuous, at best, at least at this point in time.

Having said that, to the extent that anyone takes stock of their rhetoric, and gives extra consideration to the "tone" of said rhetoric, it will not a bad thing...
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Old 01-10-2011, 10:55 AM   #30
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Suggesting that shooting people is an option to resolve a difference in opinion cannot but incite unstable people. Using that rhetoric and directing it at individuals or groups is irresponsible. I see little difference between them and advocacy by religious extremists.

I sincerely hope that gun play analogies in public (even in private) discourse will stop.
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Old 01-10-2011, 12:26 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by flyfishnevada View Post

As for the politics that will surely be interjected into this story (not here necessarily), it doesn't matter whether this guy was a right wing wacko, left wing wacko, Tea Partier, PETA member, immigration activist, gun nut, disgruntled voter or just good 'ol insane. Deciding to harm another human being except in self defense or defense of another in imminent danger, whatever the reason, is wrong. Sick people do sick things and to try and use something like this to further a political point of view is inexcusable.

I have no doubt many will try, however.
Given that this tragedy happened at a political event and included a political figure, political discussions are bound to follow. I find nothing amiss when the discussion of this tragedy includes a discussion of how one particular group has used mighty violent imagery in promoting its views. I think the discussion is fair even though there is no direct cause and effect between political rhetoric and the violence. Life is more complicated than that. (Ron links to a good article about the cloudy logic of "political" violence).

I did not know until this tragedy was reported that there was vandalism of Giffords office and several other politicians' offices following votes on health care reform. Saying this kind of intimidation is unacceptable and saying the violent imagery is unacceptable is fair. There is no better time than the present to have a public discussion. It isn't about scoring political points. It is about saying what we value and what we despise.
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Old 01-10-2011, 12:30 PM   #32
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There is no better time than the present to have a public discussion. It isn't about scoring political points. It is about saying what we value and what we despise.
Beg to differ -- very, very strongly.

This is NOT the time.

Can't we wait until the dead are buried and the wounded have recovered? To me that the first priority. When the dust settles, *then* call in the politics. Doing it before is callous to the victims and their families, IMO. It feels like putting politics over people. To me that is the definition of trying to score political points in the aftermath of tragedy. And I think it's a HUGE part of our culture of toxic, dysfunctional and increasingly polarized political environment which HATES other people (not ideas, PEOPLE) based on political dissent.

To far too many people, politics and partisanism are *everything* and becomes an obsession. That is unhealthy.

But at some point in the future, you are correct -- we have to address these things, but in terms of lack of civility and intolerance of political dissent -- regardless of the ideology of the haters. If it becomes a "witch hunt" where people selectively seek out ONLY examples of extreme hate perpetrated by the "other team," it will merely be a continuation of today's toxicity.
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Old 01-10-2011, 12:46 PM   #33
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Beg to differ, and about as strongly as I possibly can.

This is NOT the time.

Can't we wait until the dead are buried and the wounded have recovered? To me that the first priority. When the dust settles, *then* call in the politics. Doing it before is callous to the victims and their families, IMO. It feels like putting politics over people. To me that is the definition of trying to score political points in the aftermath of tragedy.

But at some point in the future, you are correct -- we have to address these things, but in terms of lack of civility and intolerance of political dissent -- regardless of the ideology of the haters.

I guess we have to agree to disagree. Memories are short and the discussion will not occur if it is not done now. Somehow it never ends up being the right time. Someone will always say it is about political points.

I do not see this as callous to the victims or family. It would be callous if this was a situation where victims bore some blame. But it isn't. The victims are innocent. The victims and their families mourn and try to heal. The country decides what it values.
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Old 01-10-2011, 12:53 PM   #34
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This is NOT the time.
I have to agree... but only because I, personally, don't have the stomach for it.

However, I need to ask: How can putting it off, until some utopian time when our 5-minute attention span is interrupted/diverted by the next (inevitable) emergency/disaster/surprise/glitter, serve any useful purpose... except, as you say, to make the current victims & families feel more comfortable (at the expense, BTW, of preventing the next batch)?

(Yeah, an extremely complicated sentence. I apologise but don't know how else to put it.)
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Old 01-10-2011, 12:54 PM   #35
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I guess we have to agree to disagree.
I guess so, which is more than some folks who are using the tragedy as an excuse to launch partisan attacks are usually willing to do.
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Old 01-10-2011, 12:57 PM   #36
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However, I need to ask: How can putting it off, until some utopian time when our 5-minute attention span is interrupted/diverted by the next (inevitable) emergency/disaster/surprise/glitter, serve any useful purpose... except, as you say, to make the current victims & families feel more comfortable (at the expense, BTW, of preventing the next batch)?
It depends on how we do it. When it's used by one "team" or the other as a cheap and convenient excuse to attack the other "team," it seems cheap and callous. But there is something to be said for at least planting a seed in people's minds about the need to restore civility and the ability to disagree without being disagreeable. Ultimately if this event leads us to a dialogue on political intolerance and leads well-meaning people to want to overcome it, it's at least one positive to come out of something so negative.

So will the tone of the discussion in the aftermath be conciliatory and with a desire to actually talk to each other or just another excuse to scream and point fingers at each other?

It seems like intolerance based on political views is fast becoming the only socially acceptable form of hate. I'd like to see there be none.
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Old 01-10-2011, 01:01 PM   #37
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Iīm sorry Ziggy, but I tend to agree with Martha. Your argument results indirectly in a variant of " you shouldnīt draw conclusions in the heat of the moment", which -in itself- has its merits .....if it wasnīt because itīs mentioned too frequently by politicians, precisely. As a result it never is the time to address an issue, because the incident is old news in a couple of days. Hence the issue is quickly forgotten.

That way tragedies like this one occurs again and again -and the same issues continue without solution.
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Old 01-10-2011, 01:01 PM   #38
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"Those who purport to care about the tenor of political discourse don't help civil debate when they seize on any pretext to call their political opponents accomplices to murder."
- Glenn Harlan Reynolds, Jan 20, 2010 WSJ
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Old 01-10-2011, 01:11 PM   #39
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However, I need to ask: How can putting it off, until some utopian time when our 5-minute attention span is interrupted/diverted by the next (inevitable) emergency/disaster/surprise/glitter, serve any useful purpose... except, as you say, to make the current victims & families feel more comfortable (at the expense, BTW, of preventing the next batch)?

(Yeah, an extremely complicated sentence. I apologise but don't know how else to put it.)
My point, but better put.

Also, I don't know why we assume that the victims and their families would be put off by discussing the state of political discourse. Gifford herself has talked about it in the past.

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"Those who purport to care about the tenor of political discourse don't help civil debate when they seize on any pretext to call their political opponents accomplices to murder."
- Glenn Harlan Reynolds, Jan 20, 2010 WSJ
Did I do this? I don' think so.

Ah well, maybe I go against conventional wisdom. I understand people have strong feelings on this issue so I won't continue to beat the horse and beg for porky.
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Old 01-10-2011, 01:25 PM   #40
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While we are consumed by our usual counterproductive rush to do something, anything- and to misinterpret or over-interpret an event to put more controls on our ability to speak politically, have a look at this article in Slate, not the usual idea of a concervative mag.

The*awesome stupidity of the calls to tamp down political speech in the wake of the Giffords shooting. - By Jack Shafer - Slate Magazine
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