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Old 01-10-2011, 04:09 PM   #61
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Ok, I stand corrected. Won´t happen again, hopefully.
If it does, we are going to send someone over there to take your smokes away.
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Old 01-10-2011, 04:16 PM   #62
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Am truly troubled by the mass shooting.

As noted by many it makes no sense, though most of the main stream media attempts paint many in with tar, and even add feathers.

Read through the post. Not sure what the discussion is, was supposed to be about.

Rather than pick the usual sources for info, would like to offer from an article some info about the shooter. This is not the usual mainstream media source.

Who is Jared Lee Loughner? - International Business Times

Excerpt from the article:

".....
"Schoolmates of the alleged shooter describe Loughner as a loner, an ultra-liberal with a penchant for hard rock music, flag burning, and pot smoking," reports Examiner.
Those who think he was lunatic should perhaps pause as evidence of some solid planning in the run-up to the murder has emerged.
According to The New York Times, investigators from the FBI found an envelope in Loughner's house bearing handwritten words: "I planned ahead," "My assassination" and "Giffords."
VIEWS
Articles on the Internet variously describe him as a 'semi-literate' who was thrown out a local college, and whose writings display 'weird syllogisms' and 'unexplained numbers and references'.
Conversely, there are suggestions that he could be a well-read person who leaned over to the fringe theories concerning patriotism and government, especially to some pseudo-intellectual lines of thinking.
MANIACAL LEFTIST OF RIGHT WING FANATIC?
Was he a leftist? His personal heroes include Venezuela's communist leader and arch enemy of the U.S. Hugo Chavez as well as iconic revolutionary Che Guevara. But it's much more complex than it looks - his list also includes President Barack Obama!"


While discussion of use of guns, ideology, motive are all good, factual info about the shooter is most useful as a starting point.


I don't know if the article is fully factually correct, it seems to me so far the best summation.
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Old 01-10-2011, 04:19 PM   #63
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If it does, we are going to send someone over there to take your smokes away.
Ha, I'm thinking the two of us could team up for this project.

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Old 01-10-2011, 04:25 PM   #64
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Am truly troubled by the mass shooting.
I am too. We all are. Let's just take a little time to wrap our minds around what happened and where we should go from here.
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Old 01-10-2011, 04:27 PM   #65
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Ha, I'm thinking the two of us could team up for this project.
Count me in, Purron!

Ha
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Old 01-10-2011, 04:46 PM   #66
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IS there a reference to help with understanding this, as it seems counterintuitive?

Ha

I was going by memory, but keep in mind that many, many people have some degree of mental illness. I was able to dig up this study which shows things are a bit more complex: http://archpsyc.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/full/66/2/152 The authors found that severe mental illness in itself was not a predictor of violence: "Multivariate analyses revealed that severe mental illness alone did not predict future violence; it was associated instead with historical (past violence, juvenile detention, physical abuse, parental arrest record), clinical (substance abuse, perceived threats), dispositional (age, sex, income), and contextual (recent divorce, unemployment, victimization) factors. Most of these factors were endorsed more often by subjects with severe mental illness."
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Old 01-10-2011, 05:11 PM   #67
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I long ago learned not to ask that question on any American forum. I think that we Europeans would do best to sit in a corner and eat our popcorn, and let the 'natives" discuss that one. Or not.
After I read your post I saw on the news that the shooter's weapon was a Glock 9-millimeter, which I believe is made in Europe. Gotta be some irony there.
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Old 01-10-2011, 05:21 PM   #68
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I was going by memory, but keep in mind that many, many people have some degree of mental illness. I was able to dig up this study which shows things are a bit more complex: Arch Gen Psychiatry -- The Intricate Link Between Violence and Mental Disorder: Results From the National Epidemiologic Survey on Alcohol and Related Conditions, February 2009, Elbogen and Johnson 66 (2): 152 The authors found that severe mental illness in itself was not a predictor of violence: "Multivariate analyses revealed that severe mental illness alone did not predict future violence; it was associated instead with historical (past violence, juvenile detention, physical abuse, parental arrest record), clinical (substance abuse, perceived threats), dispositional (age, sex, income), and contextual (recent divorce, unemployment, victimization) factors. Most of these factors were endorsed more often by subjects with severe mental illness."
Thanks Martha. I can see this is a complicated question. If two psychiatrists can disagree whether someone being tried for a murder is or is not metally ill, I guess we can expect that this question will not be easily answered.

For my money, seeing a goodly number of obviously impaired people every day, I would prefer that the only thing keeping them from carying guns not be their purse.

Maybe an acceptable MMPI score should be required to buy a gun, or at least to get a carry permit. And to not be prescribed anti-psychotics.

My neighborhood is a low murder and rape area. Still, in the last 2 years 2 murders out of at most 3 or 4 were the work of men with long histories of pschiatric treatment, who did not know their victims, and not as an outcome of arguments or other disagreements. Just lunatics gone off (usually by quitting their medication)

Ha
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Old 01-10-2011, 05:40 PM   #69
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I am still trying to get my bliss around this terrible tragedy.

Gabrielle Giffords is my Congresswoman, she really is a good and caring person. I have had a chance several times to speak with her and her staff since March 2010. She has gone to bat for SE Arizona residents to secure the border and our homes. Gabrielle stepped to the forefront when neighbor and rancher Rob Krentz was shot and killed. I owe her my gratitude, and I gave it when I voted for her in November the only democratic that I supported.

I know in my head and heart that she will get through this. The last time I spoke to her aid Gabe Zimmerman, also killed in this tragedy. I likened Gabrielle to a bulldog, I know that she will not give up the fight.

I don't pray, but I affirm that Gabrielle Giffords health, beauty, and goodness is in the present, as it was before, and always will be.
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Old 01-10-2011, 05:51 PM   #70
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Ok, I stand corrected. Won´t happen again, hopefully.


One thing that Martha failed to add (and I am not trying to call the pig... just a response to a question by someone who is not an American)...

We have a second amendment that allows gun ownership... as it stands today, it is a 'fundamental right' that can not be taken away without another constitutional amendment overturning it... people keep trying with various laws etc., but the courts usually hold that these laws violate the fundamental right...

If you want more, I suggest another thread so we do not get piggy on this important thread...
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Old 01-10-2011, 07:17 PM   #71
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We have a second amendment that allows gun ownership... as it stands today, it is a 'fundamental right' that can not be taken away without another constitutional amendment overturning it... people keep trying with various laws etc., but the courts usually hold that these laws violate the fundamental right...
And, by golly, that's what makes us so superior to you namby-pambies elsewhere... and don't you forget it.
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Old 01-10-2011, 07:25 PM   #72
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It's really getting ugly. DH and I have been watching TV tonight and thinking "damn". We're still hanging on to the hope we'll all find some common ground and support the same goals. Starting to doubt it now.
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Old 01-10-2011, 07:29 PM   #73
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I was watching the press conference with Rep. Giffords' medical team today. Their explicit description of the surgical procedure wasn't for the faint of heart, but was interesting. One usually thinks a point blank bullet to the head means certain death. I guess that's no longer true with today's medicine.
Somewhat true in the old days. IIRC, a lot of understanding of the brain came about from seeing how bullet injuries in world war II affected behavior. Note that a hot bullet passing through the brain cauterizes many of the blood vessels.
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Old 01-10-2011, 07:40 PM   #74
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How insane can you be if you plan and executed mass murder so methodically? He bought the gun and then picked out his targets very carefully. Sounds very sane to me.
This business about careful planning doesn't make sense to me. Here is the plan -- it's something anyone can understand.

1. Buy gun
2. Go to where person is
3. Shoot person and others

I've always felt the same way about the 9/11 attacks. Commentators talk about the difficult planning that had to be done. It wasn't difficult:

1. Have a bunch of guys learn how to fly planes
2. Have them all hijack and crash planes at the same time

It may be a little tricky to execute, but it's not any harder to plan than a school field trip.
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Old 01-10-2011, 07:40 PM   #75
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One thing that Martha failed to add (and I am not trying to call the pig... just a response to a question by someone who is not an American)...

We have a second amendment that allows gun ownership... as it stands today, it is a 'fundamental right' that can not be taken away without another constitutional amendment overturning it... people keep trying with various laws etc., but the courts usually hold that these laws violate the fundamental right...

If you want more, I suggest another thread so we do not get piggy on this important thread...
For years in US history the second amendment received little notice, but in recent times it has become a subject of controversy. Unfortunately, the language is awkward and thus subject to dispute as to exactly what it means:

A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

Versions vary on where the commas are placed.

Our Supreme Court recently held that this right is an individual right but did not foreclose some limitations on that right. The lines on how much regulation is permissible are far from clear.

(I think that I have avoided politics as no one can tell my position on guns!)
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Old 01-10-2011, 07:41 PM   #76
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I hope we can all agree that a return to less hostile, and more thoughtful, debate is a goal we can all aspire to. I live in a state where there are no doubt more guns than people. There is no way we could ever get guns out of the hands of everyone here, or even away from a majority of the wackos. But if all of us sane people, and I hope I may include myself in that group, can make it more clear how our democracy is supposed to work, and that both sides share common goals, then maybe the wackos won't go postal so often.
We all need to speak out and protest, immediately and loudly, when our politicians and others threaten violence, gun or other.
BTW I do own guns. But the thought of pointing one at a human makes me ill.
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Old 01-10-2011, 07:47 PM   #77
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In a lot of ways this is water over the bridge. There are so many guns in the US that we can't do much to control them.
That's an interesting argument that I've never really considered. However, it is relevant only if you are trying to control them quickly. If the time-frame were 50 years or longer, it doesn't work.
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Old 01-10-2011, 07:54 PM   #78
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It's really getting ugly. DH and I have been watching TV tonight and thinking "damn". We're still hanging on to the hope we'll all find some common ground and support the same goals. Starting to doubt it now.
Its TV. Controversy is its business. Extreme views get play.

Even though the topic is hot here on the forum we have managed to be polite to each other. That probably is more like real life if and when people talk about these things in real life.
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Old 01-10-2011, 07:55 PM   #79
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That's an interesting argument that I've never really considered. However, it is relevant only if you are trying to control them quickly. If the time-frame were 50 years or longer, it doesn't work.
Fair enough, I certainly was thinking in more immediate terms and the present day difficulties in keeping guns from those who should not have them. I agree that over time we could become less of a gun culture. But a couple hundred million guns are a lot of guns to work out of the system.

It is interesting to see the decline in interest in hunting throughout much of the country. Younger people seem a bit less interested and finding a place to hunt has become more difficult. This may effect our gun culture. I know less to nothing about urban attitudes about guns. But a big change in attitudes in 50 years? I kind of doubt it. But who knows.
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Old 01-10-2011, 08:00 PM   #80
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Ok, I stand corrected. Won´t happen again, hopefully.
It's really not an issue that's appropriate on this forum, but the respectful and genuinely inquisitive nature of your questions are noted and appreciated.

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Its TV. Controversy is its business. Extreme views get play.
Exactly. We've gone from a nation of Cronkite to one of Olbermann and Beck, and I don't think we're better for it.
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