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Old 01-11-2011, 07:10 PM   #121
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Hey Purron, we love you girl and we want you and DH to have all the pension you can get.

It's those other pensioners that we don't love and don't even know that we fume about.
Ha - Ummm, OK, thanks...I guess
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Old 01-11-2011, 07:33 PM   #122
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And, if his event wasn't tragic enough already, it looks like the nutjobs from the Westboro Baptist Church are planning to picket at the funerals in Tucson...

How does anyone justify protesting at funerals of our fallen soldiers or a little girl who was brutally murdered?
I see Arizona just passed a new law outlawing protests like this within 300 feet of a funeral. Passed unanimously by both houses, soon to be signed into law. I wonder why more states don't do this. Who needs to protest a funeral?

Arizona legislature passes bill limiting funeral protests – This Just In - CNN.com Blogs
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Old 01-11-2011, 07:50 PM   #123
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Hi Everyone

It seems that this whole event was something of a "perfect storm," of unfortunate realities. I do believe that our world is inter-connected, even though it sometimes doesn't appear to be that way. What I do does affect other people, who in turn affect other people, and on and on.

Hopefully, this will give us all pause to look around and be more aware of the effects of our presence in this world.
Agreed!
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Old 01-11-2011, 08:14 PM   #124
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We must speak out (politely and rationally) when inflammatory and inaccurate network "news" people (tv and radio) mislead the public.
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Old 01-11-2011, 09:37 PM   #125
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I see Arizona just passed a new law outlawing protests like this within 300 feet of a funeral. Passed unanimously by both houses, soon to be signed into law. I wonder why more states don't do this. Who needs to protest a funeral?

Arizona legislature passes bill limiting funeral protests – This Just In - CNN.com Blogs
IIRC, several municipalities have passed such restrictions, but they've been overturned by the courts on occassion (as undue restrictions on free speech). The Supreme Court heard their case in Oct 2010, and is expected to rule this summer.

My guess is that the legislators in AZ probably know their law might be unconstitutional, but don't much care. If it keeps these nutjobs away from the upcoming memorial service, that's good enough for them. If it gets overturned this summer--"oops! Sorry 'bout that."
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Old 01-11-2011, 09:42 PM   #126
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My understanding is that the mentally ill person knows that something is wrong, and the mind is looking for an explanation.
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I'll leave the research alone for now and address your point. ... However, I understand that approximately 12.4 million people in the US have a serious mental illness.
Thanks to you both - I agree with this, I guess I just feel we are looking at two different issues. Yes, in general the mentally ill probably need much more help from us then they are getting. I'm just trying to keep this in perspective of this specific tragedy. And I just think it's tough to pin this event on anything specific. And even if we could, it seems to me it could just as well be some other trigger (like a movie star, book, movie, etc).

Actually, I just had another thought. When MP said that the mentally ill are ' looking for an explanation'. Well, all of us are, right? We want to be able to explain this, we want to assign a cause. Maybe I'm OK with thinking the cause is mental illness, but for others that isn't enough. They want to take another step further and look for the 'trigger'. If they see the trigger as talk radio, or rhetoric, or whatever then there is a 'solution' - cut the talk. That might seem easier to solve then the large problem of mental illness.

And I'm not trying to assign any right/wrong to that. Its just different viewpoints, and different ways that people cope. But it might explain why people want to assign a 'cause'. We are all uncomfortable with what we can't explain - how can you prevent a future occurrance? Just food for thought, me 'talking' out loud.


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(Listen to callers and interviewees on 'Coast to Coast', the bizarre middle of the night radio show, for some of the stranger cases. No, sir, the President is not really a reptile wearing a human skin. That's a fictional TV series...)
Oh, I've tuned into that a few times in the past few years on a late night drive. I thought maybe I was abducted to another planet. In the most positive terms I can apply, it is 'enlightening' to hear who we share this world with. No one sounded dangerous (at least that I heard), but I couldn't help wondering - if they believe this stuff, what would they do with this 'knowledge'. And is the host just playing a game? He's pretty convincing.

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Old 01-12-2011, 08:35 AM   #127
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THE announcement that Representatives Heath Shuler of North Carolina and Jason Chaffetz of Utah are planning to wear guns in their home districts has surprised many, but in fact the United States has had armed congressmen before. In the rough-and-tumble Congress of the 1830s, 1840s and 1850s, politicians regularly wore weapons on the House and Senate floors, and sometimes used them.
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And once again we’re reminded that words matter. Communication is the heart and soul of American democratic governance, but there hasn’t been much fruitful discourse of late — among members of Congress, between the people and their representatives or in the public sphere. We need to get better at communicating not only quickly, but civilly.
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Old 01-12-2011, 10:03 AM   #128
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From what I've seen of this guy's ramblings and beliefs, there is no cohesive traditional ideology in it.
This is possibly an insight into the backstory on his seemingly incoherent beliefs:

Jared Lee Loughner: Lost in Translation | Bombs, Taxes, and Red Crayons
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Old 01-12-2011, 11:02 AM   #129
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Krauthammer summed up the situation very well. I think his previous profession was that of a shrink, so has the qualifications to discuss.

I very much agree with him. Wish I could write as well as he.

Charles Krauthammer - Massacre, followed by libel
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Old 01-12-2011, 11:09 AM   #130
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Krauthammer summed up the situation very well. I think his previous profession was that of a shrink, so has the qualifications to discuss.

I very much agree with him. Wish I could write as well as he.

Charles Krauthammer - Massacre, followed by libel
Couple of things here, focusing on the somewhat less political here to keep it within the rules:

1. The incident was NOBODY's fault other than the shooter.

2. There's no evidence that the shooter got ANY of his ideas from the usual incendiary, provocative ideological/partisan sources.

3. Having granted items (1) and (2), isn't still a good idea to step back and ask ourselves if we're a better nation for the increasing incivility in political discourse? Even if no one but the shooter is to blame, do we feel good about the state of political discourse today, that the increasingly hostile and intolerant rhetoric on both sides is what is going to help us solve some serious (but still solvable) problems we face? It may not have been the cause of THIS tragedy, but I'm not convinced it can't be the cause of another one in the future.
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Old 01-12-2011, 11:15 AM   #131
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Couple of things here, as some of the article (IMO) is bordering on too much of the political here:

1. The incident was NOBODY's fault other than the shooter.

2. There's no evidence that the shooter got ANY of his ideas from the usual incendiary, provocative ideological/partisan sources.

3. Having granted items (1) and (2), isn't still a good idea to step back and ask ourselves if we're a better nation for the increasing incivility in political discourse? Even if no one but the shooter is to blame, do we feel good about the state of political discourse today, that the increasingly hostile and intolerant rhetoric on both sides is what is going to help us solve some serious (but still solvable) problems we face? It may not have been the cause of THIS tragedy, but I'm not convinced it can't be the cause of another one in the future.
Item 1. That is exactly Krauthammer's position


From the article:

"Not only is there no evidence that Loughner was impelled to violence by any of those upon whom...."

"There is no evidence that he was responding to anything, political or otherwise, outside of his own head."

Item 2. Ditto.

Edit add:Fail to see the political angle
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Old 01-12-2011, 01:24 PM   #132
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3. Having granted items (1) and (2), isn't still a good idea to step back and ask ourselves if we're a better nation for the increasing incivility in political discourse? Even if no one but the shooter is to blame, do we feel good about the state of political discourse today, that the increasingly hostile and intolerant rhetoric on both sides is what is going to help us solve some serious (but still solvable) problems we face? It may not have been the cause of THIS tragedy, but I'm not convinced it can't be the cause of another one in the future.
Sure, increased civility on all sides would be welcome and productive. That's true at any time. It's a discussion we need to have and should pursue. But to link that discussion with this shooting seems to me, at the least, counterproductive.

But, then, I'm a fan of personal responsibility and accountability.
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Old 01-12-2011, 03:49 PM   #133
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Sure, increased civility on all sides would be welcome and productive. That's true at any time. It's a discussion we need to have and should pursue. But to link that discussion with this shooting seems to me, at the least, counterproductive.

But, then, I'm a fan of personal responsibility and accountability.
I'm also a fan of personal responsibility and accountability, but disagree with your other comments. It's a very good time to have this discussion. The information we've heard through the media indicates this was an act of a very disturbed individual and not likely caused by any particular event or person. We may know more later, but I doubt anything will come out to clarify what was really going on in the killer's mind.

Because this was an elected official, it changes the game. Many people are worried about future events spurred on by political hatred and the quality of people willing to run for office. Can you imagine how many of our newly elected representatives are feeling right now? And their families and loved ones?
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Old 01-12-2011, 04:00 PM   #134
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I'm also a fan of personal responsibility and accountability, but disagree with your other comments. It's a very good time to have this discussion. The information we've heard through the media indicates this was an act of a very disturbed individual and not likely caused by any particular event or person. We may know more later, but I doubt anything will come out to clarify what was really going on in the killer's mind.

Because this was an elected official, it changes the game. Many people are worried about future events spurred on by political hatred and the quality of people willing to run for office. Can you imagine how many of our newly elected representatives are feeling right now? And their families and loved ones?
So, just so I understand, how is the incivility of our political discourse linked to this shooting? I don't see any evidence of a linkage at all. By the accounts of his friends he was not politically knowledgeable or active.

A nutcase shot at Jerry Ford, there was no call for greater political brotherhood. A nutcase shot at Ronald Reagan, there was no call for a love-in or banning of various types of speech. Even when assassinations have been politically motivated, we've had the good sense to blame the shooter. I hope we don't abandon that tradition.
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Old 01-12-2011, 04:07 PM   #135
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So, just so I understand, how is the incivility of our political discourse linked to this shooting? I don't see any evidence of a linkage at all. A nutcase shot at Jerry Ford, there was no call for greater political brotherhood. A nutcase shot at Ronald Reagan, there was no call for a love-in.
The state of political discourse today is nothing like it was when there were assassination attempts on Ford and Reagan. I've never seen so many people pissed off at other people for no other reason than that they support the "wrong" team.

I suppose we should wait for another assassination that is *clearly* the result of some marginally stable individual going over the edge because of toxic, incendiary (left wing *or* right wing) rhetoric before we start discussing whether the state of political discourse today is desirable? That seems to be what you're implying here. That reminds me of local government policy to not put stop signs into dangerous intersections until AFTER a kid is hit by a car there.

I fail to see why a call for more civility in how we talk politics is so unacceptable to you, especially when none of the cooler heads here are blaming anyone but the kook who pulled the trigger. It's not like it's a call for government-imposed "speech codes" or a call for people to abandon their principles -- just that they stop treating people who disagree as their mortal enemies. You don't have to *blame* toxic rhetoric in this case to think it's not leading us down a productive or desirable path.
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Old 01-12-2011, 04:11 PM   #136
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So, just so I understand, how is the incivility of our political discourse linked to this shooting? I don't see any evidence of a linkage at all. A nutcase shot at Jerry Ford, there was no call for greater political brotherhood. A nutcase shot at Ronald Reagan, there was no call for a love-in. Even when assassinations have been politically motivated, we've had the good sense to blame the shooter. I hope we don't abandon that tradition.
Interestingly, I understand that after President Kennedy was shot there apparently was a fair amount of discussion about the charged political climate in Dallas and the anti-Kennedy rhetoric there and whether that may have been a factor in the shooting.

"Blaming the shooter" isn't very meaningful to me. Sure, fine, put the guy away for ever. But it is more forward looking to consider factors that may effect what people do and what contributes to making people who they are. We are all a bundle of causes and effects, including the shooter. (I am not making assumptions about what those causes are in this shooter's case).

And, as Ziggy said, "You don't have to *blame* toxic rhetoric in this case to think it's not leading us down a productive or desirable path."
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Old 01-12-2011, 04:12 PM   #137
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I fail to see why a call for more civility in how we talk politics is so unacceptable to you.
What I already said (post 132, emphasis added):

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Sure, increased civility on all sides would be welcome and productive. That's true at any time. It's a discussion we need to have and should pursue. But to link that discussion with this shooting seems to me, at the least, counterproductive.
There's no ambiguity in my statement--I believe we should be doing more to keep the tone civil. Why would I find it "unacceptable?"
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Old 01-12-2011, 04:14 PM   #138
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So, just so I understand, how is the incivility of our political discourse linked to this shooting? I don't see any evidence of a linkage at all. By the accounts of his friends he was not politically knowledgeable or active.

A nutcase shot at Jerry Ford, there was no call for greater political brotherhood. A nutcase shot at Ronald Reagan, there was no call for a love-in or banning of various types of speech. Even when assassinations have been politically motivated, we've had the good sense to blame the shooter. I hope we don't abandon that tradition.
I'm not calling for a love-in or speech banning. I'm also not linking this tragic event to the current political state of affairs. Just saying now is as good a time as any to pursue the discussion.

Edited to add: On second thought, why not have a love-in?
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Old 01-12-2011, 04:16 PM   #139
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There's no ambiguity in my statement--I believe we should be doing more to keep the tone civil. Why would I find it "unacceptable?"
I don't know, maybe because it *feels* to me like other stuff is combining to send a mixed message. Maybe I'm just a dolt and I'm parsing it wrong. (You don't need to agree. )
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Old 01-12-2011, 04:17 PM   #140
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I'm not calling for a love-in or speech banning. I'm also not linking this tragic event to the current political state of affairs. Just saying now is as good a time as any to pursue the discussion.

Edited to add: On second thought, why not have a love-in?
bbbamI should be along shortly with her group hug emoticon.
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