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Old 01-12-2011, 07:27 PM   #141
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So, just so I understand, how is the incivility of our political discourse linked to this shooting? I don't see any evidence of a linkage at all. By the accounts of his friends he was not politically knowledgeable or active.
I wonder if a smart prosecutor is researching his ISP's records to see if any of that account's computers accessed the IP address of the website with the crosshairs over her Congressional district.

It's human nature to attempt to discern a pattern and make sense out of this senseless act.
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Old 01-12-2011, 07:34 PM   #142
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Many people are worried about future events spurred on by political hatred and the quality of people willing to run for office.
Isn't it fairly clear that political hatred is exactly what did not "spur on" this event.

It was spurred on by some deranged internal functions inside a lunatic's head.

The Washington Post is hardly a conservative rag. A similar aticle was in David Brooks NYT column. Bend it though we might wish, we can't seem to make it take the desired shape.

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Old 01-12-2011, 08:28 PM   #143
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The Memorial Service tonite was just what the nation needed, IMO.
Excellent speech by President Obama.
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Old 01-12-2011, 08:47 PM   #144
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The Memorial Service tonite was just what the nation needed, IMO.
Excellent speech by President Obama.
Thank you Westernskies. This means a lot to me hearing this from you my friend. DH and I were very touched by his speech.
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Old 01-12-2011, 08:53 PM   #145
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The Memorial Service tonite was just what the nation needed, IMO.
Excellent speech by President Obama.
He made my eyes leak...
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Old 01-12-2011, 08:56 PM   #146
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The following Web article told of this killer's previous mental problems. Sadly, his infractions only led to expulsion from the college, but were not bad enough to warrant incarceration.

Open Channel - Records show fear of Loughner, lack of mental health intervention

One of his former classmates describes him as a "left-wing pothead". This confuses me as I was told on this forum that marijuana supposedly calmed one down.

Jared Loughner, Alleged Shooter in Gabrielle Giffords Attack, Described by Classmate as "Left-Wing Pothead" - Phoenix News - Valley Fever
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Old 01-12-2011, 10:04 PM   #147
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It was spurred on by some deranged internal functions inside a lunatic's head.



Ha
We are all influenced by our culture. Including lunatics. Just as it is over simplifying to say the political climate caused this tragedy , it is also oversimplifying to say that it was just the deranged internal workings of his mind.
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Old 01-12-2011, 10:26 PM   #148
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We are all influenced by our culture. Including lunatics. Just as it is over simplifying to say the political climate caused this tragedy , it is also oversimplifying to say that it was just the deranged internal workings of his mind.
Well certainly we are all influenced by our culture, just like we all tend to have PCBs and various chemicals on board that we have gotten from our physical environment.

But, so what? It is impossible to have a society without political tensions, except maybe Iceland where everybody is one's cousin. In some societies the discussion is suppressed, until a group gets really fed up and then they start a revolution, or if the Army gets fed up first they mount a coup. In modern democracies political differences are more or less freely expressed. Nothing works perfectly, but which approach tends to work better?

Maybe politics should have moderators, like this board. That would definitely cool discussion, especially if the moderators were free to deport citizens. But then I guess we would have run out of freedom, and all the people who died in US Wars at least from WW1 onward would clearly have died in vain.

Why did we hear little about a need to stifle political rhetoric after Reagan was shot? Why was his attempted assassination an act of a lunatic, while Rep. Giffords' attempted assassination must somehow be the result, even if indirect, of our "strident political culture"?

Do you remember an unusually peaceful political climate around Reagan's term? I certainly do not.
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Old 01-12-2011, 10:33 PM   #149
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The following Web article told of this killer's previous mental problems. Sadly, his infractions only led to expulsion from the college, but were not bad enough to warrant incarceration.

Open Channel - Records show fear of Loughner, lack of mental health intervention

One of his former classmates describes him as a "left-wing pothead". This confuses me as I was told on this forum that marijuana supposedly calmed one down.

Jared Loughner, Alleged Shooter in Gabrielle Giffords Attack, Described by Classmate as "Left-Wing Pothead" - Phoenix News - Valley Fever
And you were told correctly. According to one of his best friends,
Quote:
After Loughner apparently gave up drugs and booze, "his theories got worse," Tierney says. "After he quit, he was just off the wall."
Exclusive: Loughner Friend Explains Alleged Gunman's Grudge Against Giffords | Mother Jones
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Old 01-12-2011, 11:12 PM   #150
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+1 Haha. You've got it right about Reagan. There was no similar discussion because he was on the wrong side of the media. It's a real shame that this tragedy has been so abused for personal gain. One Vermont Senator, Bernie Sanders, is actually fundraising, basing his plea for donations on the Giffords Shooting:
Vt. senator cites shootings in fundraising letter - KansasCity.com

SHAME ON YOU SENATOR!

I live in AZ and this shooting was devastating for all of us. And the political ugliness that followed is a huge disservice to AZ and the Country. I don't ever remember politics being this ugly or those involved so lacking in compassion or a soul.
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Old 01-12-2011, 11:20 PM   #151
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The Memorial Service tonite was just what the nation needed, IMO.
Excellent speech by President Obama.
My DW agreed, she said President Obama did just as he needed to. I missed it, I was actually out at a 'Meet & Greet' for my own newly seated Rep in Congress. SRO, and I was out in the hall for the first part, and a bit late trying to find parking, so I couldn't catch all of the start. But the start was clearly an 'airing' of this tragedy, and there were several references to it throughout his talk and Q&A. Bottom line on this, in addition to showing respect for those directly affected by the tragedy, was that this isn't going to stop him from meeting his constituents.

And while I didn't feel, nor did I sense any tinge of 'fear' from anyone attending, it was all a bit surrealistic to be at an event like this so soon after the tragedy, and at the same time that President Obama was addressing the nation about it.

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Old 01-13-2011, 09:04 AM   #152
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Why did we hear little about a need to stifle political rhetoric after Reagan was shot? Why was his attempted assassination an act of a lunatic, while Rep. Giffords' attempted assassination must somehow be the result, even if indirect, of our "strident political culture"?
Perhaps this interview Rep. Giffords gave last March may have given some people this idea.

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Old 01-13-2011, 09:33 AM   #153
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Perhaps this interview Rep. Giffords gave last March may have given some people this idea.
But to answer haha's Q, you would need to compare this to other times. That would likely drag this into a political match, so I'm not going to go there, out of respect for the victims.

I started thinking about the terminology we used at MegaCorp:

We would designate a 'War Room' for hot, reactionary projects (recalls, etc).

We talked openly about getting a product out that would 'kill the competition'.

We would 'get them in our sights'.

This is what 'we are shooting for'.

What should we 'target' next?

I'm pretty sure we've used phrases like 'if we have to spill blood to get this done on time, we will', just to emphasize the importance.

I've heard more than once that certain managers would 'run over their grandmother', to get that last pallet out to the dock before the End-of-the-Month midnight closing deadline.

It goes on and on...

Another infamous (and grotesque) exchange (google it for the sources):

Quote:
Microsoft's Christopher Phillips famously told (Apple's) QuickTime manager Peter Hoddie, "we want you to knife the baby."
and...

Quote:
The first company witness to speak was Paul Maritz, platforms and applications group vice-president and author of the now-famous quote about how Microsoft planned on "cutting off Netscape's air supply."
So this isn't limited to the political arena. And I don't know of any sane people who were moved to act on those words.


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Old 01-13-2011, 10:53 AM   #154
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But to answer haha's Q, you would need to compare this to other times. That would likely drag this into a political match, so I'm not going to go there, out of respect for the victims.

I started thinking about the terminology we used at MegaCorp:

We would designate a 'War Room' for hot, reactionary projects (recalls, etc).

We talked openly about getting a product out that would 'kill the competition'.

We would 'get them in our sights'.

This is what 'we are shooting for'.

What should we 'target' next?

I'm pretty sure we've used phrases like 'if we have to spill blood to get this done on time, we will', just to emphasize the importance.

I've heard more than once that certain managers would 'run over their grandmother', to get that last pallet out to the dock before the End-of-the-Month midnight closing deadline.

It goes on and on...

Another infamous (and grotesque) exchange (google it for the sources):



and...



So this isn't limited to the political arena. And I don't know of any sane people who were moved to act on those words.


-ERD50
Targeting someone for political defeat isn't the same as targeting them for assassination. Do a Google Search for "political crosshair targets" and you'll find plenty of examples- from both sides. Unfortunately, the folks trying to make something more out of this are the same folks who expel kindergartners who point their "gun finger" at a classmate. That's where the hand-wringing and vitriol is coming from, IMO.

ERD, heard this one the other day, believe it was from Stephen Wright:

"I'd kill for a Nobel Peace Prize"
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Old 01-13-2011, 01:22 PM   #155
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ERD, heard this one the other day, believe it was from Stephen Wright:

"I'd kill for a Nobel Peace Prize"
More vitriol from the Wright...
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Old 01-13-2011, 01:45 PM   #156
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Deleted. Don't want to go there.
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Old 01-13-2011, 01:47 PM   #157
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I think the imagery must match the audience. In the workplace you know the audience and it is well defined. A speaker must consider the whether or not members of their audience will act on their suggestions. In a public setting there is no way to know the mindset of the audience.

Steven Wright was speaking of himself, not invoking action by others. Furthermore he did not identify potential victims.
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Old 01-13-2011, 02:03 PM   #158
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I think the imagery must match the audience. In the workplace you know the audience and it is well defined. A speaker must consider the whether or not members of their audience will act on their suggestions. In a public setting there is no way to know the mindset of the audience.
You never met some of the people I worked with!

I understand what you're saying, but where does it end? Does it mean we can't talk about government provided safety nets, because maybe some whacko will get upset because he feels that some deserving people will get cut off, or some other whacko will get upset because he feels there are too many frauds taking advantage of the system and he doesn't want to see a nickel go to waste? That discussion, even without extreme language, could trigger a whacko. So do we stop talking altogether? Does the discussion need to be so very polite that no one can possibly take offence? Heated issues will be discussed with fervor and passion.

I think the 'battlefield' metaphors are a common and basic way we describe things that are important to us. We don't describe a routine trip to buy groceries with that language. But things near and dear to our heart, yes, that language slips in.

And again, with respect to the OP, I haven't seen/heard anything that indicates this tragedy was triggered by language from either side. I want to see our leaders stick to the issues, but I'm far less concerned about the metaphors they use in the process.

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Old 01-13-2011, 06:18 PM   #159
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Hey, what the heck is this? Why are you attributing WS's post to me?

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More vitriol from the Wright...
Anyway, there are now people who knew this guy and are coming out to say that he is simply a nut case, and if anything, is a radical liberal. I remember that he called Giffords a "fake". Does that mean that the representative was simply not an extreme leftist like he was?

I just ran across some info from here that I like to share.
Their group was “liberal in wanting to change the way the world was run, we both wanted to. He took it to an extreme I never would’ve.” She said he was a “political radical” long before the teaparty, Glenn Beck, or Sarah Palin came on the scene...

There is NO evidence that he was influenced by conservatives, but there is good evidence he was influenced by socialists. His my Space page, for example, listed Mein Kampf and The Communist Manifesto as some of his favorite books.
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Old 01-13-2011, 07:15 PM   #160
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There is NO evidence that he was influenced by conservatives, but there is good evidence he was influenced by socialists. His my Space page, for example, listed Mein Kampf and The Communist Manifesto as some of his favorite books.
Please good sir, could you keep evidence out of this?
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