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Old 11-21-2014, 06:46 AM   #61
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2.61 Yesterday in Jacksonville, fla
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Old 11-21-2014, 08:07 AM   #62
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Yesterday, I noticed it was down to 2.46 in a couple of small towns here in central/east Texas.
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Old 11-21-2014, 08:18 AM   #63
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$2.65 when I left Front Royal VA a week ago. $2.79 in Ocean City MD when I got there a week ago. $2.97 here in Bonita Springs FL as of yesterday. Ripping off the old people.
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Old 11-21-2014, 08:25 AM   #64
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It was under $3 for the first time in a long time when I filled up at Costco earlier this week.

CA has higher gas taxes - so we're always more expensive than other places.
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Old 11-21-2014, 08:34 AM   #65
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CA has higher gas taxes - so we're always more expensive than other places.
I always thought that was the case but it appears at the moment NY may be in the lead...
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Old 11-21-2014, 08:36 AM   #66
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Price here is now $2.99. This is the first time below $3 in the last 3 years. I don't understand why it is still so high here as there is a refinery about a mile from my home.
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Old 11-21-2014, 08:58 AM   #67
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I'll probably be shot for saying it, but I think gas prices should never go down!

Right now, at this price level, the economics of the tar sands are probably questionable. Some of the harder to get sources requiring steam and such, are also getting closer to being "not worth it". So those operations shut-down, go out of business, etc. Oh, then, of course, after the damage is done to those businesses, the price is manipulated by the producers later back up to higher than it was, and it takes time for those alternative sources to get back into gear.

What if there were a law that said for every penny petrolium goes down, the government would compel sellers to collect the difference between the world price and the highest historical world price. Whatever is collected goes to directly to reducing the national debt. So the price was $3.50 and it goes down to $2.75, then $0.75 goes into paying off the debt. If the price returns to $3.50, they collect nothing. If the price goes to $3.75 then returns to $3.50, they collect $0.25.

So if the price is predicably "always flat or up", then energy businesses can thrive. Investments can be made with much less risk, and a solid vector away from foreign oil can be established.
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Old 11-21-2014, 09:14 AM   #68
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I'll probably be shot for saying it, but I think gas prices should never go down!

Right now, at this price level, the economics of the tar sands are probably questionable. Some of the harder to get sources requiring steam and such, are also getting closer to being "not worth it". So those operations shut-down, go out of business, etc. Oh, then, of course, after the damage is done to those businesses, the price is manipulated by the producers later back up to higher than it was, and it takes time for those alternative sources to get back into gear.

What if there were a law that said for every penny petrolium goes down, the government would compel sellers to collect the difference between the world price and the highest historical world price. Whatever is collected goes to directly to reducing the national debt. So the price was $3.50 and it goes down to $2.75, then $0.75 goes into paying off the debt. If the price returns to $3.50, they collect nothing. If the price goes to $3.75 then returns to $3.50, they collect $0.25.

So if the price is predicably "always flat or up", then energy businesses can thrive. Investments can be made with much less risk, and a solid vector away from foreign oil can be established.

Unless I am misunderstanding you Seng, I don't see how collecting the difference to apply to debt would effect production. Since the company is not getting the money, they would still not be profitable. All that does in increase taxes on drivers. FWIW, some tar sand companies are profitable now. I own some Suncor and they are awash in the stuff and production cost is in low 30s per barrel.


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Old 11-21-2014, 09:52 AM   #69
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2.94/gal two days ago in small town northern Cali-two hours north of San Francisco. Interesting we are so much cheaper than SF!
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Old 11-21-2014, 10:11 AM   #70
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$2.76 in my area for unleaded regular.

My break even point for my hybrid goes up with every price drop. We need gas at $4 or more a gallon soon to make my purchase look good!

Well.... In reality since I plan to drive the car 100,000 miles or more I will break even in any case. It's just I that have have to turn down the gloat-0-meter a bit when I pass by a gas station.
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Old 11-21-2014, 10:12 AM   #71
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Unless I am misunderstanding you Seng, I don't see how collecting the difference to apply to debt would effect production. Since the company is not getting the money, they would still not be profitable. All that does in increase taxes on drivers. FWIW, some tar sand companies are profitable now. I own some Suncor and they are awash in the stuff and production cost is in low 30s per barrel.
Glad to hear they're not shutting down!

You got it right: a tax on drivers. I'm not a fan of more taxes, but a disincentive to burn fossil fuels would be one place where I'd tax if I were king.

I didn't explain the mechanism very well, but I figure that a barrel produced in North America would always fetch the high price, no matter what. So OPEC doesn't game the system, maybe the "high price" would be a moving average. The refinery would be indifferent as to where the oil came from since it all would cost the same amount. Buy from Texas and pay the highest world price to the producer. Buy from OPEC when the current world price had sunk, producer gets paid the current (cheap) world price and the difference between that and highest world price would go to the debit.

I'm sure they'd cry foul, since this would be considered a "tariff", but I think it could be argued for since they are not playing fair when it comes to manipulating the price of oil.
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Old 11-21-2014, 10:16 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by sengsational View Post
I'll probably be shot for saying it, but I think gas prices should never go down!

Right now, at this price level, the economics of the tar sands are probably questionable. Some of the harder to get sources requiring steam and such, are also getting closer to being "not worth it". So those operations shut-down, go out of business, etc. Oh, then, of course, after the damage is done to those businesses, the price is manipulated by the producers later back up to higher than it was, and it takes time for those alternative sources to get back into gear.

What if there were a law that said for every penny petrolium goes down, the government would compel sellers to collect the difference between the world price and the highest historical world price. Whatever is collected goes to directly to reducing the national debt. So the price was $3.50 and it goes down to $2.75, then $0.75 goes into paying off the debt. If the price returns to $3.50, they collect nothing. If the price goes to $3.75 then returns to $3.50, they collect $0.25.

So if the price is predicably "always flat or up", then energy businesses can thrive. Investments can be made with much less risk, and a solid vector away from foreign oil can be established.
Not sure I agree with all the reasoning but until we really know the environmental cost of alternate oil recovery means, I'd be inclined to agree with a higher federal tax on fuel.

This won't affect me, 'cuz I won't be around that long, but I believe that the sooner the world turns to renewable energy, the better off my grandchildren will be.
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Old 11-21-2014, 10:22 AM   #73
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Whatever the reasons, I filled my gas tank with Exxon Supreme (or whatever they call their most expensive grade of gas), for $2.97/gallon recently. I think regular was $2.57/gallon. Both have been dropping like a rock lately so they are probably lower than that today. Even though I only fill my gas tank once or twice a month, still what a pleasure it is to encounter such surprisingly low prices.

Now, if only food prices would do the same!
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Old 11-21-2014, 10:27 AM   #74
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Regular is down to $2.42/gal range here and dropping, can find it for $2.3x/gal if you search. But diesel is still $3.45/gal range. Not driving the diesel truck as much now!
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Old 11-21-2014, 11:31 AM   #75
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You got it right: a tax on drivers. I'm not a fan of more taxes, but a disincentive to burn fossil fuels would be one place where I'd tax if I were king.
Do you live in a larger metropolitan area? There are those of us that do not have a choice burn fossile fuel or not. This area is very spread out; getting to a grocery store is at least a 3 mile walk and the nearest theater is about 10 miles away. There are a couple of bars within a few blocks but I don't like to spend much time in bars. When it's below 0 degrees no one wants to walk that far and for the elderly it would be dangerous. We have no choice but to burn fossil fuel either in our own or some other vehicle. Remember that the population density of North Dakota is less than 10 people per square mile. In this state you can't find enough people going the same direction at the same time to support mass transit. I can never support a disincentive to burn fossil fuels.
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Old 11-21-2014, 12:42 PM   #76
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Regular is down to $2.42/gal range here and dropping, can find it for $2.3x/gal if you search. But diesel is still $3.45/gal range. Not driving the diesel truck as much now!
So are you running regular 87octane gas in your 454 without any issues?
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Old 11-21-2014, 01:28 PM   #77
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Glad to hear they're not shutting down!

You got it right: a tax on drivers. I'm not a fan of more taxes, but a disincentive to burn fossil fuels would be one place where I'd tax if I were king.

I didn't explain the mechanism very well, but I figure that a barrel produced in North America would always fetch the high price, no matter what. So OPEC doesn't game the system, maybe the "high price" would be a moving average. The refinery would be indifferent as to where the oil came from since it all would cost the same amount. Buy from Texas and pay the highest world price to the producer. Buy from OPEC when the current world price had sunk, producer gets paid the current (cheap) world price and the difference between that and highest world price would go to the debit.

I'm sure they'd cry foul, since this would be considered a "tariff", but I think it could be argued for since they are not playing fair when it comes to manipulating the price of oil.
Actually kind of like your idea. What we need is stable prices, not necessarily low prices. It's the huge swings that get us buying SUVs one year and Priuses the next. If we could predict what our actual fuel costs would be into the future, we would eventually find that alternatives make sense and then start to build them with out the fits and starts that we've seen for 20 years.

However, manipulation of prices has its own problems, though we do it all the time as a gummint. Been doing it for years (farm subsidies, tax incentives, blah, blah, and etc.) My issue with any plan that dedicates money to "pay off the debt", etc. is that gummint money is fungible. Many examples I could give which demonstrate this issue. As long as gummint sees a source of money, they will use it to "buy votes" instead of pay down debt.

Actually, if gummint wanted to stabilize prices, they would simply mandate a move toward increasing storage capacity - SWAG of 4X current. (Alternately, they could do it themselves.) As stated earlier, the inelasticity of fuel demand, combined with miniscule storage capacity leads to wild swings in prices. Imagine OPEC or whomever decides they want to short us a couple million bbl per day to drive up prices (or punish us). If we had the capacity to give them the middle finger salute, they would run out of petro dollars before we ran out of gas - if we had plenty of fuel in storage. Just a theory of mine, so YMMV.
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Old 11-21-2014, 01:36 PM   #78
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Price controls? What could possibly go wrong with that...
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Old 11-21-2014, 01:39 PM   #79
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$2.759 for 87 octane regular at the local Costco in San Jose this morning. $2.999 for the 91 octane premium for those that use it. I was sure prices would go up after the election. Now I think they will go up after Christmas, which is looking pretty weak right now.
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Old 11-21-2014, 01:53 PM   #80
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Glad to hear they're not shutting down!

You got it right: a tax on drivers. I'm not a fan of more taxes, but a disincentive to burn fossil fuels would be one place where I'd tax if I were king.

I didn't explain the mechanism very well, but I figure that a barrel produced in North America would always fetch the high price, no matter what. So OPEC doesn't game the system, maybe the "high price" would be a moving average. The refinery would be indifferent as to where the oil came from since it all would cost the same amount. Buy from Texas and pay the highest world price to the producer. Buy from OPEC when the current world price had sunk, producer gets paid the current (cheap) world price and the difference between that and highest world price would go to the debit.

I'm sure they'd cry foul, since this would be considered a "tariff", but I think it could be argued for since they are not playing fair when it comes to manipulating the price of oil.
You would have a hard time arguing that the tax should be based on the pump price. The pump price in other countries has higher taxes on it. As I mentioned above, in CA, we have fairly high taxes on gas, compared to many other places. (Maybe not the highest - but up there.) Plus there's that whole liter/gallon conversion thing you'd have to do. LOL.

If you were talking about unit to unit prices PRE TAX, compared to another place, you'd be making an argument that makes sense (to me). I may not agree with it - but it makes sense.

Otherwise you're just asking us to increase our gas tax to match Canada, Europe, etc. I doubt that would fly at all.
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