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Re: George Bush Comes In Third
Old 11-04-2006, 04:01 PM   #21
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Re: George Bush Comes In Third

Quote:
Originally Posted by 'max'
It is one thing to justifiably protect oneself against a known threat, Al Quaeda for instance. It is quite another to get bogged down in Iraq (USA and UK). I still don't see where there is a prevailing climate of appeasement today. If so, then which nations are doing the appeasing?
On appeasement. What price has Iran paid for defying the world on its nuclear program? What price has North Korea paid for detonating a nuclear device, besides some weak sanctions that China immediately claimed it would not enforce? Is talking endlessly until tyrants achieve their nuclear objectives not appeasement?

Iraq is another example of appeasement. History has shown that Iraq did not have weapons of mass destruction. History also shows that Iraq spent ~10 years violating U.N. resolutions all the while seeing a steady erosion of the sanctions against his regime. History further shows that Iraq used its oil wealth to pay for leniency and support at the U.N . . . Iran, surly you were paying attention?

The Iraq war was never about WMD, at least not exclusively. WMD was a pretense for regime change in order to bring democracy to the Middle East - which was, and is, the real objective. It is was thought that by seeding democracy throughout the region we could eliminate the underlying conditions that produce suicidal terrorists, over the long-run. So, yes, the Iraq war was very much a part of a long-term strategy to end global terrorism.

And, incidentally, taking action to end an oppressive tyrannical regime should be applauded by freedom loving people everywhere (why is it not?). The sin of the U.S. was hubris for thinking it could accomplish this worthy objective on its own. The sin of the world for standing idle and watching it (and hoping for it to?) fail is far greater.

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Re: George Bush Comes In Third
Old 11-04-2006, 04:23 PM   #22
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Re: George Bush Comes In Third

Quote:
Originally Posted by 'max'
Some here may recall the 1964 campaign. Goldwater supposedly would, if elected, have been a threat to world peace. Unlike George Bush he never made it as president so we shall never know.

From wikipedia:

A campaign advertisement, known popularly as Daisy, shown only once, filmed a child, a young girl, counting daisy petals, from one to ten. Immediately following this scene, a voiceover counted down: ten, nine, eight, ... three, two, one. The child's face was shown as a still photograph followed by images of nuclear explosions and mushroom clouds. The campaign advertisement ended with a plea to vote for Johnson, seemingly implying that Goldwater would start a nuclear war if he won. The advertisement, which featured only a few spoken words of narrative and relied on imagery for its emotional impact, was one of the most provocative moments in American political campaign history, and many analysts credit it as being the birth of the modern style of "negative political ads" on television. The ad only aired once, and was immediately pulled. (Goldwater called Johnson personally and threatened to sue him.)
I've seen that ad (which only means that I am older than dirt).
I supported Goldwater. I even have a photo (or maybe my first ex.
has it) showing me and Barry together at one of his campaign rallies.

JG
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Re: George Bush Comes In Third
Old 11-04-2006, 04:24 PM   #23
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Re: George Bush Comes In Third

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Originally Posted by 3 Yrs to Go
On appeasement. What price has Iran paid for defying the world on its nuclear program? What price has North Korea paid for detonating a nuclear device, besides some weak sanctions that China immediately claimed it would not enforce? Is talking endlessly until tyrants achieve their nuclear objectives not appeasement?

Iraq is another example of appeasement. History has shown that Iraq did not have weapons of mass destruction. History also shows that Iraq spent ~10 years violating U.N. resolutions all the while seeing a steady erosion of the sanctions against his regime. History further shows that Iraq used its oil wealth to pay for leniency and support at the U.N . . . Iran, surly you were paying attention?

The Iraq war was never about WMD, at least not exclusively. WMD was a pretense for regime change in order to bring democracy to the Middle East - which was, and is, the real objective. It is was thought that by seeding democracy throughout the region we could eliminate the underlying conditions that produce suicidal terrorists, over the long-run. So, yes, the Iraq war was very much a part of a long-term strategy to end global terrorism.

And, incidentally, taking action to end an oppressive tyrannical regime should be applauded by freedom loving people everywhere (why is it not?). The sin of the U.S. was hubris for thinking it could accomplish this worthy objective on its own. The sin of the world for standing idle and watching it (and hoping for it to?) fail is far greater.

Actually you do make quite a convincing case. I am not sure I would call it appeasement though. However if countries will not band together and collectively take concrete punitive measures, such as trade sanctions and ostacising rogue nations such as N. Korea and Iran, well that is not the ideal situation either.

On the other hand one can't simply go about bombing these countries back to the stone age can one? (To be clear, I am not saying this is US policy or thinking).

This is a very complex issue and so far no one seems to have come up with the answer.

But the policy towards Iraq had been an unmitigated disaster. I can't be all that sure of the original intent, and I can't believe that Tony Blair actually went along with it, but from my vantage point I see IRAQ becoming a repeat of Vietnam. Of course I would be glad to be proven wrong on this one.

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Re: George Bush Comes In Third
Old 11-04-2006, 04:29 PM   #24
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Re: George Bush Comes In Third

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Originally Posted by Mr._johngalt
I've seen that ad (which only means that I am older than dirt).
I supported Goldwater. I even have a photo (or maybe my first ex.
has it) showing me and Barry together at one of his campaign rallies.

JG
I can not recall exactly (since I was quite young back then) but if memory serves Barry Goldwater had picked a running mate, a military guy, who claimed he would not hesitate, if needs be, to use the A bomb.

I could be wrong here and stand to be corrected.

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Re: George Bush Comes In Third
Old 11-04-2006, 04:33 PM   #25
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Re: George Bush Comes In Third

Quote:
Originally Posted by 3 Yrs to Go

. . . "in those days there was prevailing a climate of appeasement" - as is true today.

I am not aware of any "climate of appeasement" related to terrorism or Bin Laden. I think there is a healthy fear of terrorism and a determination to defeat it.

I do think there are a lot of people who recognize that our involvement in the civil war in Iraq is not helping the war on terrorism at all. But the desire to leave Iraq is coming primarily from people who believe our involvement there is hurting our efforts to fight terrorism -- not from a climate of appeasement.
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Re: George Bush Comes In Third
Old 11-04-2006, 04:41 PM   #26
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Re: George Bush Comes In Third

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Originally Posted by 'max'
from my vantage point I see IRAQ becoming a repeat of Vietnam.

That's the way I see it. The main difference is that Bush will not back
off. I view this as a good thing (a little Martha Stewart there), regardless of how
it all turns out. I guess what I am saying is that I prefer stubborn
egoists to wimpy "cut and runners".

JG
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Re: George Bush Comes In Third
Old 11-04-2006, 04:46 PM   #27
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Re: George Bush Comes In Third

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Originally Posted by 'max'
a military guy, who claimed he would not hesitate, if needs be, to use the A bomb.
You need to study history. It is mostly war and killing. Thus, this may have been the wrong thing to say in a campaign, but is absolutely understandable.

JG
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Re: George Bush Comes In Third
Old 11-04-2006, 04:55 PM   #28
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Re: George Bush Comes In Third

I wonder what the official Canadian position regarding North Korea and Iran is........ Is it more than peaking out from behind Mom USA's apron at the bullies?
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Re: George Bush Comes In Third
Old 11-04-2006, 05:58 PM   #29
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Re: George Bush Comes In Third

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Originally Posted by youbet
I wonder what the official Canadian position regarding North Korea and Iran is........ Is it more than peaking out from behind Mom USA's apron at the bullies?
I haven't heard much on that topic of late.

Predictably, it will be one of condemnation. What else?

However the new Prime Minister, whose government is in a dangerous minority position (so theoretically it can fall at any moment) is very much aligned with Washington. That doesn't go over too well with some of the electorate.

That is in contrast with a previous prime minister who was very much his own man. The story goes that an American president had once called him a 'rectal aperture'. Both are no longer with us.

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Re: George Bush Comes In Third
Old 11-04-2006, 06:21 PM   #30
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Re: George Bush Comes In Third

Quote:
Originally Posted by youbet
I wonder what the official Canadian position regarding North Korea and Iran is........ Is it more than peaking out from behind Mom USA's apron at the bullies?
On another note, what is the official Canadian position on immigration?
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Re: George Bush Comes In Third
Old 11-04-2006, 06:25 PM   #31
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Re: George Bush Comes In Third

PLEASE don't judge Canada by 'Max'. He's just a brit we had to let in due to our immigration policies.
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Re: George Bush Comes In Third
Old 11-04-2006, 06:35 PM   #32
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Re: George Bush Comes In Third

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On another note, what is the official Canadian position on immigration?
Canada doesn't have to concern itself overly with illegal immigration. It is a non issue. There is no plan to build a fence. No need to. Right now there are about 800,000 waiting to get in. One must undergo medical and security checks.

This link might help.

http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/index.html
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Re: George Bush Comes In Third
Old 11-04-2006, 06:44 PM   #33
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Re: George Bush Comes In Third

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Originally Posted by 'max'
Right now there are about 800,000 waiting to get in. One must undergo medical and security checks.
If this is true, psychological evaluation should be required as well.

JG
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Re: George Bush Comes In Third
Old 11-04-2006, 06:48 PM   #34
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Re: George Bush Comes In Third

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If this is true, psychological evaluation should be required as well.

JG
It is true .. check out the facts.

As to psychological evaluation you might just have point. Would you care to summarize how it would add value in these circumstances?

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Re: George Bush Comes In Third
Old 11-04-2006, 06:48 PM   #35
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Re: George Bush Comes In Third

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Originally Posted by 'max'
Canada doesn't have to concern itself overly with illegal immigration. It is a non issue. There is no plan to build a fence. No need to. Right now there are about 800,000 waiting to get in. One must undergo medical and security checks.

This link might help.

http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/index.html
What do you mean "a non issue?" If they're there illegally, it's tolerated? Or, few want in badly enough to be there illegally? Or?
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Re: George Bush Comes In Third
Old 11-04-2006, 06:53 PM   #36
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Re: George Bush Comes In Third

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Originally Posted by youbet
What do you mean "a non issue?" If they're there illegally, it's tolerated? Or, few want in badly enough to be there illegally? Or?
Sorry I didn't make myself clear. Go to the site please and there it is clear 'undocumented' workers may be deported. It is just that there aren't enough of them to make a difference one way or another.

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Re: George Bush Comes In Third
Old 11-04-2006, 06:53 PM   #37
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Re: George Bush Comes In Third

Quote:
Originally Posted by 'max'
It is true .. check out the facts.

As to psychological evaluation you might just have point. Would you care to summarize how it would add value in these circumstances?

I'm just messin' with you. I don't care if I even have a point as the only
critic I care about is me. See "alphabet soup's" obscene rant for further
clarification.

JG
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Re: George Bush Comes In Third
Old 11-04-2006, 07:03 PM   #38
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Re: George Bush Comes In Third

Yes I just read it. I have no idea what prompted those comments. I thought this site, just like others, was designed to exchange ideas. To disagree but politely.
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Re: George Bush Comes In Third
Old 11-04-2006, 08:02 PM   #39
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Re: George Bush Comes In Third

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Yes I just read it. I have no idea what prompted those comments. I thought this site, just like others, was designed to exchange ideas. To disagree but politely.
Okay. Where's this juicy alphabet soup rant? Inquiring minds want to know.
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Re: George Bush Comes In Third
Old 11-04-2006, 08:11 PM   #40
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Re: George Bush Comes In Third

This inquiring mind wants to know why the mods aren't enforcing asshole's ban...
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