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Old 01-05-2012, 10:26 AM   #221
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People do not change, they get better at hiding who they really are. The guy you have described cannot be trusted, period. It is a scary he is a doctor. I would not want to be his patient.
I don't disagree with what you've said on this particular guy. I'd just like to extend the thought to more normal types. People are manipulative and we see it all the time in our (even good) managers and politicians. We might even admire the manipulative talents of others. Children learn to manipulate others on the playground. At the personal level it should be "good" manipulation that is a win-win and in this case it is definitely a win-sorry-you-loose situation.

Well, that's my philosophizing for the day.
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Old 01-05-2012, 10:55 AM   #222
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.... The guy you have described cannot be trusted, period. It is a scary he is a doctor. I would not want to be his patient.
This is exactly what I have been thinking.
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Old 01-05-2012, 11:16 AM   #223
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People do not change, they get better at hiding who they really are. The guy you have described cannot be trusted, period. It is a scary he is a doctor. I would not want to be his patient.
This is kind of a concern of mine. He is so irrational and I worry that he might have had an actual mental break. My consolation is that since he's still a fellow and not practicing on his own, he should be under supervision, so hopefully his patients aren't being harmed. However, his superiors trust him and I'm not sure how much supervising they're actually doing. Luckily he is mostly in the lab this month and probably only seeing 10 patients a week. He did tell me that all of his experiments failed last week -- what a surprise.

I thought about contacting his mentor/boss to let her know what is going on (he is a private person and still hasn't told people at work he's getting divorced) so she could keep an eye on things and make sure his patients aren't getting short-changed. But I thought that might come across as vindictive and I'm not sure if it would accomplish anything anyway. He's really good at compartmentalizing, so maybe he's still professional and composed at work and just saving the crazy for me?

He had his second counseling appointment today and will have his third on Monday. I see my counselor next week as well and will bring up my concerns to her at that point. The counseling service is through his employer and they only see students/staff/residents/spouses so I'm sure they've dealt with this before and mine can tell me if my concerns are overblown and, if not, what to do.

I never had that glass of cider last night -- I'm finding that with him gone, the desire to have a drink is quite diminished! At one point, I thought I heard the garage door open and my heart just sunk. I worried he was changing his mind yet again (which wouldn't matter since mine's made up.) Now that the final decision is made, this divorce can't come fast enough for me!
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Old 01-05-2012, 11:31 AM   #224
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At one point, I thought I heard the garage door open and my heart just sunk.
Hearing that makes Helen's advice even more appropriate:
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The best advice I could give is to go "no contact". Tell him not to contact you in any way and let your attorney deal with him.
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Old 01-05-2012, 11:43 AM   #225
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Hearing that makes Helen's advice even more appropriate:
I know this would be best, and it's what we're doing while he's living with his mistress, but he has no place to go when her husband returns. From what my lawyer said, since we own the house jointly, I don't have the right to kick him out. And I don't really want to pay for him to stay in a hotel love nest.

I could leave and stay with friends, but it would majorly inconvenience me and he wouldn't take care of our pets properly. (I am working on rehoming some, a few permanently, others temporarily until I have my own apartment.)

Maybe her husband will decide not to come back and then NC can continue. Otherwise, I'll have to do a modified NC with him in the house. As long as he goes out to dinner with her and just sleeps at home, this shouldn't be too difficult. But if it gets unbearable, I will leave.

It's just hard to figure out the timing on the divorce. My lawyer said we shouldn't be in any rush to file as he doesn't yet have a written contract for post-fellowship employment, so right now his salary is x whereas in July it should be 4-5x, making maintenance calculations different.

I know this sounds like a bunch of excuses. I guess we'll see how it is in the house when/if he returns.
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Old 01-05-2012, 01:15 PM   #226
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I am so sorry that you are going through all of this. Count me in with the ones that don't think you should have any contact with him. Just think how so many of his problems would go away, if you conveniently disappeared. If he does have mental problems, you could be in danger. Take care and best of luck with everything. You are young and seem to have a good head on your shoulders and you should have a good future ahead of you.
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Old 01-05-2012, 02:38 PM   #227
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I know this would be best, and it's what we're doing while he's living with his mistress, but he has no place to go when her husband returns. From what my lawyer said, since we own the house jointly, I don't have the right to kick him out. And I don't really want to pay for him to stay in a hotel love nest.

I could leave and stay with friends, but it would majorly inconvenience me and he wouldn't take care of our pets properly. (I am working on rehoming some, a few permanently, others temporarily until I have my own apartment.)

Maybe her husband will decide not to come back and then NC can continue. Otherwise, I'll have to do a modified NC with him in the house. As long as he goes out to dinner with her and just sleeps at home, this shouldn't be too difficult. But if it gets unbearable, I will leave.

It's just hard to figure out the timing on the divorce. My lawyer said we shouldn't be in any rush to file as he doesn't yet have a written contract for post-fellowship employment, so right now his salary is x whereas in July it should be 4-5x, making maintenance calculations different.

I know this sounds like a bunch of excuses. I guess we'll see how it is in the house when/if he returns.
I would make sure that you safeguard away from him anything that involves information (correspondence with your attorney, phone numbers, computer info, and such) while you are in the waiting state on the timing.

In the meantime, if you help out in chores like cooking, laundry, taking messages etc. I wouldn't help him as a reminder for him to not get too comfortable just because you both are still under the same roof.
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Old 01-05-2012, 03:30 PM   #228
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It's just hard to figure out the timing on the divorce. My lawyer said we shouldn't be in any rush to file as he doesn't yet have a written contract for post-fellowship employment, so right now his salary is x whereas in July it should be 4-5x, making maintenance calculations different.
FYI, in my state either party can submit a motion to the court for an adjustment of child support based on material changes in financial status at any time. I am not sure if the same thought applies to spousal maintenance in your state. However, if it did, you might be able to divorce him now with maintenance based on $X now, and file a motion for modification of maintenance based on 4-5 times $X later at your convenience.

Alternatively, you could write up the agreement to say that he is required to provide you copies of his income tax returns and/or that the support calculation will automatically be adjusted on date X or when he gets a job, or whatever.

Again, the courts have seen this sort of thing before and they should treat you roughly fairly if you plead a reasonable case.

By the way, each state is required (by a US Supreme Court decision, I believe) to have default provisions for these kinds of things. My state's document is pretty readable and understandable -- it's not legalese. You might want to read a copy of your state's document.

Talk to your lawyer.

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Old 01-05-2012, 04:48 PM   #229
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I know this would be best, and it's what we're doing while he's living with his mistress, but he has no place to go when her husband returns. From what my lawyer said, since we own the house jointly, I don't have the right to kick him out.
His having no place to go is NOT your problem. I'm sure he'd like to make it your problem, though.

You may own the home jointly but that doesn't mean you have to put yourself at risk - especially since he's a self-diagnosed sociopath.

There is no way that the law can force soon-to-be-divorced people to live together because a house is jointly owned. What do all the hundreds of thousands of other divorced people do?
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Old 01-05-2012, 11:03 PM   #230
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What do all the hundreds of thousands of other divorced people do?
In my case, although my ex initiated the divorce, I moved into a hotel and then into an apartment. We sold the jointly owned home during our separation, split the proceeds 50/50 and that was enough for us each to get a down payment on another home for each of us.

Fortunately for us, our divorce was in 2006 before the housing bubble imploded. One unexpected consequence of the housing crash is that married couples wanting a divorce sometimes had to retain joint ownership for a while because the house was underwater and they did not have enough assets to bring cash to the closing.

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Old 01-10-2012, 12:12 PM   #231
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Nuiloa: I don't think the law is forcing soon-to-be-divorced people to live together; it's saying that neither one is forced to move out -- It's a difficult situation.

In my case when I divorced 20 years ago, I moved to an apartment because my husband had told me more than once he'd never leave the house, that I'd be the one who would have to go. If I stayed, he would have made my life and my 19 year old daughter's life a misery for daring to file for divorce. (He was an alcoholic.)

What makes it really hard is when one wants to divorce and the other does not.
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Old 01-10-2012, 12:59 PM   #232
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There is no way that the law can force soon-to-be-divorced people to live together because a house is jointly owned.
You think it makes more sense for the law permit a provision to force an individual from their home, in which their legal spouse still lives, when their name is on both the deed and the mortgage?
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Old 01-10-2012, 01:04 PM   #233
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You think it makes more sense for the law permit a provision to force an individual from their home, in which their legal spouse still lives, when their name is on both the deed and the mortgage?
Of course not; just claim abuse and force the male homeowner out, but be sure he must go on paying. In fact, up his payments.

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Old 01-10-2012, 02:57 PM   #234
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I think that this is a little to simple for the real world. People cheat for different reasons.

There are some people who are always looking to cheat. They are unlikely to change.

There are also some people that cheat because their relationship has failed or is distress, and they are trying to find a way to meet the needs that a relationship normally meets. The young person who cheats as a way to exit a failed relationship does not neccessarily repeat the same mistakes twenty years later (although some people never learn better ways of dealing).

There are people who have substance abuse issues, and cheat as a result of them. If they are able to address the substance abuse issues, they will probably stop cheating. Sadly, I don't think I would want to bet on that.

Remember too that everyone faces different levels of temptation. If Angelina Jolie sets out to seduce a 20 year old serviceman that has been deployed for 3-months, he's going to be a lot more likely to cheat than that same man 30 years later once he is home, with no one expressing serious interest in cheating with him.

Note--

None of this is meant to encourage the OP to give her husband another chance. I think that ship has sailed, and that the OP is much better off without him.

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1. Once a cheat always a cheat. They will do this again to you or someone else. Don't let it be you.
2. Cheats are by there very nature manipulators. All the sorry and wanting you back and never do this again rhetoric are nothing more then trying to protect their future. Nothing more.
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Old 01-10-2012, 10:11 PM   #235
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None of this is meant to encourage the OP to give her husband another chance. I think that ship has sailed, and that the OP is much better off without him.
Don't worry, there will be no second chance. I have done so much reading and talking to my therapist about this and I know why he cheated. It had nothing to do with our marriage and everything to do with how broken he is. Even he admits that.

The past week when he was gone (after I made my final decision), it was like a dark cloud of gloom had been lifted from the house. He's back now, but since I have detached, it went as smoothly as could have been expected. I might w*rk late tomorrow, though

We have a property agreement, though since he's unstable, I suppose he could back out. It's just written on notebook paper and signed by both of us. He has agreed to reimburse me, in after-tax funds, for all of the student loan + interest that has been paid during the marriage and relinquish all claim to my bonus or severance that I am scheduled to be paid in March. I don't think it's as much as I necessarily deserve, but given the laws in the state, two lawyers told me if he'd do that, to take it and avoid litigation.

I will be fine financially. I can support myself and will come through the divorce debt-free, though living in an apartment. I am really excited about the future!

Now, to work on myself and figure out why I was so happy with a man who, in retrospect, treated me so badly. 2012 will be a fabulous year of introspection and new beginnings!
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Old 01-11-2012, 07:58 AM   #236
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We have a property agreement, though since he's unstable, I suppose he could back out.
Notarizing might help ... the notary will witness that he's not under duress . If he's working every day, the unstable plea will not pass the sniff-test IMO. He has too much to loose - at work - by playing that card.
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Old 01-11-2012, 09:54 AM   #237
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We have a property agreement, though since he's unstable, I suppose he could back out. ...
I will be fine financially. I can support myself and will come through the divorce debt-free, though living in an apartment. I am really excited about the future!

Now, to work on myself and figure out why I was so happy with a man who, in retrospect, treated me so badly. 2012 will be a fabulous year of introspection and new beginnings!
You will be better off even if he does back out of the property agreement.

Now you can put all your psychic energy into yourself and not someone else--that is priceless.
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Old 01-11-2012, 10:04 AM   #238
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Be very careful with an unstable and potentially vindictive STB ex living under the same roof. Go take a self defense class and consider getting whatever form of non-lethal defense product is legal in your state (pepper spray, taser, etc.). Better safe than sorry.
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Old 01-13-2012, 01:37 PM   #239
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Of course not; just claim abuse and force the male homeowner out, but be sure he must go on paying. In fact, up his payments.

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Old 02-07-2012, 12:02 PM   #240
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For those who might be interested, I thought I'd update on this saga.

We filed for divorce in January, but the laws in our state require a 4 month waiting period, so it won't be final until May. We have a lawyer reviewing everything so there aren't any problems, and I should have that paperwork by the end of the week so we can file it with the court.

They have rented an apartment together and were supposed to move in Feb 4. He rented a U-Haul and moved her into their apartment, then he came to our house to get his stuff. However, he couldn't do it, as he said that he never loved her, still loves me, finally realized the full impact of what he did, wants to reconcile, can't stop thinking of me, is only happy and clear-headed when I'm around, etc. I told him the choice was no longer his, but he still decided not to move his stuff out. So now they're living together, but he was supposed to bring our bed and TV, so maybe they're sleeping on the floor? Who knows, but he told me his mistress is pretty angry at him right now for not following through. She may be beginning to recognize the "prize" she "won" At least I get a little more time on the Tempurpedic instead of an air mattress!

My hunt for a j*b is going pretty well. That's currently my limiting factor, and why I'm still in the house. I want to live near w*rk, so I need to know where I'll be w*rking and what salary I'll be making before I can rent something. I'm hoping to have something solid by the end of the month. Timing is a bit difficult since I need to stay at my current j*b through the end of March due to severance/bonus issues, so many places don't even know what openings they have, or they don't want to commit to me when I can't start for 7 weeks yet.

My STBX was extremely anti-social (no friends) so I had started to become that way in order to keep the peace with him. I've realized that I had lost myself over the years, so I'm making up for that now. Have been going out with friends 3-5 times per week and having such a good time. So many free cultural events I was missing out on!

I am starting to realize that his affair was a blessing in disguise. He was emotionally abusive. I always thought he was joking, so I didn't think I took him seriously, but since this has happened and I am no longer walking on eggshells, I realize I must have internalized some of his abuse. My therapist told me I'm such a "glass half full" person that if I were in a concentration camp, I'd be rationalizing why it wasn't so bad, so I need to work on recognizing red flags to make sure I don't get involved in such a bad relationship again!

So now it's pretty much just a waiting game. If all goes well, I should only have to see him two more times -- the day of our divorce, and the day we sell the house. I am so happy that once those two things are final, there is nothing tying us together so I can cut ties completely and move on.
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