Getting Out Of The Cave

[DFDubb]

With passages too narrow to keep your gear on, you have to remove it all, pass it through the restriction while still breathing off of it, then pass through yourself, assemble all of your gear back on, and proceed. This sounds a lot easier than it actually is. As soon as you remove your gear, your buoyancy changes and your body immediately wants to surface. Oh and by the way, they need to be able to do this w/o being able to see anything. This sort of thing is just not going to be possible for kids who have not trained for this.

[folivier]

The movie Sanctum is pretty realistic about divers getting stuck in a cave during a flood.

[Texas Proud]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ERD50 I heard that the cave flooded after they went in. The boys may have also taken off on their own. /snip/ -ERD50

I know that.... the question I posed is how did they get back 2 plus miles in the cave that has such narrow passages? They would have had to take a lot of lights and some food and drink for that long of a hike... we are talking many hours...



And who would go so far without knowledge of the cave? I never want to go into a cave without some very experienced guide or it is so marked that there is no way to get lost...

[ERD50]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Texas Proud I know that.... the question I posed is how did they get back 2 plus miles in the cave that has such narrow passages? They would have had to take a lot of lights and some food and drink for that long of a hike... we are talking many hours... And who would go so far without knowledge of the cave? I never want to go into a cave without some very experienced guide or it is so marked that there is no way to get lost...

Agreed, it does seem really reckless.

-ERD50

[MRG]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ERD50 Agreed, it does seem really reckless. -ERD50

Many people don't understand the extreme danger of caving. Very sad.

[samclem]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Texas Proud I know that.... the question I posed is how did they get back 2 plus miles in the cave that has such narrow passages? They would have had to take a lot of lights and some food and drink for that long of a hike... we are talking many hours... And who would go so far without knowledge of the cave? I never want to go into a cave without some very experienced guide or it is so marked that there is no way to get lost...

Apparently, these kids do know the cave pretty well, have been in it many times. It was the flooding that made this a crisis.
Crews are now pumping water out of the cave, already took out millions of gallons. But more rains are predicted soon, which could set things back or put everyone in greater peril.
As far as the scuba tanks: I'm not clear on why each person would need to carry a tank in the narrow confines of the cave. The tank(s) could be anywhere with a line run to a regulator carried by the swimmer. This isn't "cave diving", it is a rescue operation. But, I'm sure the folks on the scene have thought of all the easy answers.

[Marita40]

samclem, your picture of Twain is ironic given this thread's cave talk. Remember the plight of Injun Joe...

[tmm99]

How difficult would it be to drain the rain water out?

[REWahoo]

Quote:

Originally Posted by tmm99 How difficult would it be to drain the rain water out?

Difficult:

Quote:

They're drilling through rocks to make room for hoses, which have already helped remove more than 31 million gallons of water.

Thailand cave rescue focus is on pumping water out, finding other way to soccer team

[limeyx]

Quote:

Originally Posted by samclem Apparently, these kids do know the cave pretty well, have been in it many times. It was the flooding that made this a crisis. Crews are now pumping water out of the cave, already took out millions of gallons. But more rains are predicted soon, which could set things back or put everyone in greater peril. As far as the scuba tanks: I'm not clear on why each person would need to carry a tank in the narrow confines of the cave. The tank(s) could be anywhere with a line run to a regulator carried by the swimmer. This isn't "cave diving", it is a rescue operation. But, I'm sure the folks on the scene have thought of all the easy answers.

1. You aren't going to get a hose of long enough length to be useful
2. The zero viz will make saving anyone who gets dis-oriented almost impossible
3. Zero viz really induced complete panic

If I had to do it with Scuba, I'd

- Give everyone a full face mask which is duct taped over their head and the reg glued in.
- Give them huge thick mitten gloves so they cannot move their fingers
- Strap a tank between their legs and bind their legs together with rope and 3x the gas needed
- Put 50 pounds of lead on them
- Tie a line to them and literally drag each person through

But even that is not likely to work depending on the shape of the restrictions ... some of these can be so gnarly that you cannot get through w/out contorting your body in certain ways

[samclem]

Quote:

Originally Posted by limeyx 1. You aren't going to get a hose of long enough length to be useful 2. The zero viz will make saving anyone who gets dis-oriented almost impossible 3. Zero viz really induced complete panic

Right. We'd obviously have a guide rope, harnesses snap-linked to it, lights. Of course they can get any length of O2 hose needed. It doesn't need to span the entire cave. A full-face mask is a good idea, complete with lights.

There's a lot of things going in their favor:
- They have been found.
- A relatively small group needing to be rescued.
- They are young people who have been active in sports and presumably still in good shape. Getting out an 80 year old asthmatic in a wheelchair would be very different.
-Virtually no resource constraints.


The folks on scene presumably have the best info on the situation and are doing all possible to see this through to a happy conclusion.

[Scratchy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by marko I think I'd take the wait myself. They said it could be four months. Set me up with some comforts (food, clothes, light---lotsa light-- bedding.....and WiFi) and I can wait it out. Kinda like being snowbound in reverse. They can bring in everything needed. With my life on the line (at age 14) I'd go with an unpleasant guarantee rather than a maybe. What I don't understand is how they're getting good air at this point without it being pumped in.

No guarantee with waiting either. 13 people in a cramped space with limited access to water, and no sanitary facilities means very high likelihood of contracting an infection. Both options are very poor, IMO. I really don't know which is worse. I think they will have to do some sort of hybrid-the strongest swimmer(s) first, see how it goes. I doubt all 13 could make the scuba dive. Also doubt all 13 could last months in those conditions. I really really hope they find some other option like drilling down or some super pumps to get the water levels lower.

[Aerides]

Quote:

Originally Posted by samclem - They are young people who have been active in sports and presumably still in good shape. Getting out an 80 year old asthmatic in a wheelchair would be very different.

One big challenge is they are now pretty emaciated. They were underground with no food for 10 days. Probably didn't move much to preserve energy. Has to be some atrophy and exhaustion that set in.

Any of us would be mush after that. 12 year olds will recover quicker, but you'd have to first get them back to normal (1 week+?) and train them. So, yeah I'm hoping the engineers figure this one out quickly and safely.

[Rustic23]

build a tube about the size of an aircraft drop tank with a door to allow a kid in and out. Attach a rope to both ends. Place a small air supply in the tank with a kid and pull it them the water one at a time.

[HI Bill]

I am a certified diver (not cave diver), who has some 2,700+ dives. I'm also a geologist. The geology is limestone, which is highly permeable. Once the forecast rains come, the pumps that have been slowly lowering the water level won't be able to come close to keeping up, and the water level will rise, along with the strength of the water flow. If it were me (or my kid), I'd opt for training the kids on the basics of scuba and cave diving, get them full face masks (for which donations have already been requested), and take the risk of having one to several drown due to panic on the way out. Cold, bad air, an psychologically difficult conditions would make me want to get out quickly. 9 getting out alive is better than 12 drowning when the water rises, IMHO. There is no safe path to survival at this point.

[frayne]

Elon to the rescue. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...or-cave-rescue

[Amethyst]

See: restrictions. Not just narrow, but bendy! I have to wonder how the group ever got through them when it was dry (and they weighed more).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rustic23 build a tube about the size of an aircraft drop tank with a door to allow a kid in and out. Attach a rope to both ends. Place a small air supply in the tank with a kid and pull it them the water one at a time.

[braumeister]

In my younger days I did a lot of spelunking. You would be surprised at how small an opening can be negotiated by someone who is young and slim.

[limeyx]

Quote:

Originally Posted by braumeister In my younger days I did a lot of spelunking. You would be surprised at how small an opening can be negotiated by someone who is young and slim.

Yah but not in zero visibility underwater (when you aren't even a trained diver)

This would be a nightmare (and I am cave trained and have dived caves for 10 years)

[braumeister]

I was responding to Amethyst who asked how they got in there.