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Old 06-12-2008, 10:58 PM   #101
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Old 06-12-2008, 11:33 PM   #102
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I have learned in life that people usually do not change. If someone is crooked or rotten they usually stay that way until they die.

I have seen people that were horrible right up until their death in their 80's.

I have worked for people and had nothing but problems over and over and over with the same people and not one problem with others. People that I know that I like and trust seems to stay a constant also. I get that comment from people that have known me for a long time and I take it as a huge compliment. Thinks like "I know I can count on you".

I know that people can change it seems that when kids are in their teens that they can be rotten and then turn out ok. But for people in their mid twenties or older I think those traits are there for life.

Now I know there are exceptions I have seen some nice people be rotten and some people that were going through a bad time and were horrible and then made it right later.

But I would say at least 9 out of 10 if you find someone who has a habit of doing rotten stuff they will stop that when they stop breathing.

I had a neighbor that sued everyone for no reason she was horrible....she was that way until she died. I got another neighbor that is in her mid 80's that is as objectionable as they come and I doubt she will change if and when she reaches 90!

The way I look at it is no one is perfect even the nicest people I know can have their ways and get annoying at times. Life is not like some perfect movie.

When I would do work for people there were people that I just could not work for because of reasons like they would not pay me or were just abusive. And others that I didn't like that were workable to deal with.

I guess what I'm saying is if you know the person you are dealing with pretty well don't ever expect them to change just ask yourself if you can HANDLE the way they are. Because they probably will never change!

I hope everything works out for you.

Jim
I agree with you that people don't change - only incrementally if at all!

I don't think TheFed said anything about her having to change - just 1) his issues with idea of marriage and 2) the "past"

If Fed can forgive - genuinely - then he should be ok. and the two can work out something that will make both feel satisfied in terms of marriage or whatever you end up calling it...
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Old 06-12-2008, 11:43 PM   #103
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As the World Turns...

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Old 06-13-2008, 12:15 AM   #104
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As the World Turns...

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This sounds a lot like Leonardo.

Does anybody remember Leonardo?

Enough of the complaining and whining if you do not want to marry her then do not and get on with your life.

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Old 06-13-2008, 01:13 AM   #105
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re: providing the commitment so she knows i'll be there. THATS THE STICKING POINT. doesnt showing her by EXAMPLE mean much more than by saying 'i do' thats what i dont get...people would prefer a promise more than ACTION...8 years ive been there thru thick and thin


Fed.... you missed the point of my first post.... I was not talking about your kids... but how you feel about your lady...

You sound like a lot of guys that I have known.... I don't believe in marriage... it is 'meaningless'.... or even 'it is just a piece of paper'... and even yours... isn't my actions more important....

I will then ask YOU... if it is only a piece of paper... then why are you so AGAINST giving her this piece of paper? if you say you will be there 'forever', then why not say it BY LAW? Your arguments ring hollow... there is something else that you are not saying... there is a REAL reason you do not want to be married.... maybe you don't even know what it is... but I go back to my first post.... and I will reword it a bit...

she is good enough to keep around the house and take care of my kids and we have sex etc.... but DAMN if I am going to let her get her hands on MY stuff....

is this more clear? And if you think this way.... then you are not ready to get married.... you are a family or you are not... right now, you are not... you are two people who happen to live together who have two kids together....

Finally, do you have a will? Who are you leaving your assets to when you die? If it is not her... well, go back up a few paragraphs and read what I put down... now you know it is true....

OPPPSSS.... sorry.. one more comment.... it seems you also are trying to plan for the divorce already... even before the marriage...
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Old 06-13-2008, 01:20 AM   #106
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I EXPERIENCED life without her for 6 months and wouldnt wish that on my worst enemy. i NEED her. that's not the issue at hand. having to say "I DO" to prove it is what irks me...my actions SHOULD speak louder than my words...
AHHH..... in a word... NO


OR.. YES, the action of marrying her will speak a lot louder than your words of how you will be with her your whole life etc etc etc.... these are the 'words'... "I DO" is a big ACTION... it makes a whole lot of other things come into play... with what you can do with retirement plans, who can say what happens to you in case you are in a hospital and can not make a decision because you are in a coma or something.... and what happens IF you ever do break up... that is why you are so hung up.... because just saying the words are easy.... it is the COMMITMENT that these words entail is what is your hangup....
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Old 06-13-2008, 02:50 AM   #107
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Fed... no offense.

But based on your description of yourself and her response to you (perhaps caused by you or not)... you should probably not get married. What you have is a likely recipe for divorce.

Unless you can both change, you are better off staying single.

She apparently wants commitment. Not surprising. She should consider moving on and so should you. Why invest time and emotion in each other if you have different goals and expectations.
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Old 06-13-2008, 07:29 AM   #108
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Fed.... you missed the point of my first post.... I was not talking about your kids... but how you feel about your lady...

You sound like a lot of guys that I have known.... I don't believe in marriage... it is 'meaningless'.... or even 'it is just a piece of paper'... and even yours... isn't my actions more important....

I will then ask YOU... if it is only a piece of paper... then why are you so AGAINST giving her this piece of paper? if you say you will be there 'forever', then why not say it BY LAW? Your arguments ring hollow... there is something else that you are not saying... there is a REAL reason you do not want to be married.... maybe you don't even know what it is... but I go back to my first post.... and I will reword it a bit...

she is good enough to keep around the house and take care of my kids and we have sex etc.... but DAMN if I am going to let her get her hands on MY stuff....

is this more clear? And if you think this way.... then you are not ready to get married.... you are a family or you are not... right now, you are not... you are two people who happen to live together who have two kids together....

Finally, do you have a will? Who are you leaving your assets to when you die? If it is not her... well, go back up a few paragraphs and read what I put down... now you know it is true....

OPPPSSS.... sorry.. one more comment.... it seems you also are trying to plan for the divorce already... even before the marriage...
Ditto.

Second best post of the thread IMO (ok - maybe tied with the one re: SS credits/survivor benefits)

(first best post to me is still "Yakers" quote from Thornton Wilder, THE SKIN OF OUR TEETH)
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Old 06-13-2008, 08:02 AM   #109
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Fed, You do realize that she's eventually going to get sick & tired of begging you to get married and she'll probably leave and unfortanetely when women get to this point their heart and mind are closed and their is no turning back . I've seen this happen many times .
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Old 06-13-2008, 08:19 AM   #110
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Fed,
I'm a bit late to this thread. I did read your posts and some others. Texarkany and Nords have given you some good insights. From your other posts I get the sense you are trying to get your life together and are proud of what you have accomplished.

My thoughts below:

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+1+ BUT she certainly deceived me and was sleeping with a man while still sleeping in my house. i didnt even see it coming. over the next 6 months, we both realized our mistakes, mended the relationship, and moved on. we now have 2 kids (3 and 3mos), live in the same house,etc.

well, why dont i want to marry her? I honestly just cant forgive her for what she did.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

+2+ although i was not good at being in a relationship at the time, i NEVER deliberately did anything that would hurt her...it was unintentional,self-absorbed, greed-driven emotional absence.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++

+3+ i also suspect she had some part or knowledge of a certain event in my life that will affect me for ever. long story short, my illegal lifestyle at the time resulted in large sums of cash stashed around the house. shortly after she moved out, people I KNOW she mingled with attempted to rob me, police were involved, i am now a felon. LONG story VERY short. I dont WANT to believe she was a part of it, but i think her big mouth started things in motion. I cant forgive that. she swears she had nothing to do with it. i also suspect she slept with a second person while we were separated, someone i knew...but denies it. she'd never admit it, and i wont ever forget it...so its a stalemate



i also want a pre-nup, which she takes halfheartedly. i dont want her to be able to pull one over on me nect year or 10 years down the road. I dont THINK she would, but i didnt THINK she'd sleep with some guy while still residing in my/our home...nor did I have the slightest idea she'd have all her stuff moved out when she did...I was BLINDSIDED. I have significant assets for my age and want them protected. she alwasy said 'yeah, we can do a pre-nup" but now that im discussing details it aint going so well.


+4+ all in all, i feel not marrying her is my last bit of 'control' over the situation. i dont DISTRUST her now...not at all....but its the fear of the unknown holding me back


+6+ i dont know what to do....everythings fine on a day-to-day basis....until marriage talk comes up....

++++++++++++++++
+5+ i even explained that im trying to find MYSELF right now...the whole inner peace thing I posted before...and she laughs at me...literally...saying 'how long is it going to take? we've been engaged for 2 years". i understand her point, but she definately doesnt understand where im at emotionally/spiritually/mentally right now...and that doesnt help

thanks for listening!

1. Trust once broken is difficult to put back together again - just like glass or a mirror. I don't know if anyone can help you with that one.

2. I've been there - Although I didn't knowingly did anything to hurt her; it doesn't matter - it is all the same to her. My insensitivity towards her had the same affect. I think a lot of men have this problem.

3. see 5.

4. it is good you can acknowledge this

5. I get the sense that you are attempting to grow and mature from your "previous life" and your girl friend may not be on the same path as you. You are trying to get out the "street" and she may be still living there (if you know what I mean) In other words you are growing apart.

+6+ Is this ignoring the problem and hoping it will work itself out? It won't - it will just pop up later when there is stress in the relationship.

Bottom line - This might not apply to you and your girlfriend but I saw it in my own life. You can love and need another person with all of your being. But that doesn't mean you have the tools to make a marriage out of it. If you and your girlfriend do not come from solid families that shown you what a good marriage looks like then you are missing the right tools. Corny idea - love is like the knowledge of a carpenter. But he can't build a house with only a hammer.

So the recommendation of serious counsiling for the both of you is a good one.

If you are near or still socialize with the people from your "street" days move - no matter what the cost. Go to an area and with people you aspire to be. You will feel out of place and challenged in many ways but it will help and your girlfriend in your new life - if it is ment to be.
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Old 06-13-2008, 08:44 AM   #111
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Just want to forewarned you that either your girlfriend or you might end up in the maury povich show for dna test and when the dna result is read she or you running off the stage crying with maury chasing you for counseling.
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Old 06-13-2008, 09:00 AM   #112
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Fed, when I started reading this thread I thought you should do the right thing and get married, if only for the sake of the children and their future security.

But after reading all the replies and thinking more about your situation as you describe it, I have changed my mind. Don't get married -- at least not right now. Marriage for you just doesn't sound like the solution to your issues.

Marriage, even between two individuals who share the same values, dreams and plans, is difficult. Just looking at the divorce stats confirms that. For a marriage to work, the couple cannot go into it thinking the partnership is 50-50, for that's rarely the case.

Sometimes (often) one partner has to give 100%, even when the other is coasting along giving 10%. Partners have to forgive each other for all kinds of stuff. Dreams have to be back-burnered or forgone and plans restructured. As humans are apt to do, our interests change and people find themselves on different paths.

And this is in the best of cases. If there are issues around trust, commitment, sharing, the future or the past, the chances for a successful marriage drop dramatically.

So, even though there are children involved, I suggest that marriage for you right now is probably not a good idea. You are just not in the right place to make that lifetime commitment.

Having said that, however, I do feel that you owe your family something more than your physical presence and your day to day support. The fact that your girlfriend was previously wed and currently unemployed leads me to suspect that she is worried about the future for her and your sons. As another poster asked, do you have a will and an estate plan that provides support for her and your sons should you die -- either married or not? Do you have a life insurance policy that names her or a trust for your sons as beneficiary? As an unmarried couple, you and she are really not protected legally in a lot of ways. So, at least for now, I suggest you do the right thing and make some decisions that will provide for them should something happen to you.

As for the planned wedding this fall, you need to sit down and help her understand why you can't go through it right now. Then, as others have suggested, you need to do whatever you need to do (e.g., counseling) to help you make a decision about your future.

Good luck to you, Fed. I'm pulling for you!
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Old 06-13-2008, 10:18 AM   #113
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You've gotten all the good advice you need here, my one thought is that I was troubled by your description of your run in with the law. You committed illegal acts for which you gained significant amounts of money until you got busted, and your initial, emotional response, even after all this time is to look for someone to blame for it so far as to suspect the mother of your children. I agree that you probably aren't ready for marriage if you can't look at your criminal past and say, "That was MY fault, PERIOD." and consider yourself lucky you weren't shot dead by a rival drug dealer or whatever. You got off extremely easy. Until you can quit throwing blame for your self made troubles on others, you shouldn't be trapping someone in your world.

I have a co-worker who has been waiting for her boyfriend to marry her for 8 years. They bought a house together 4 years ago, but he says, "they have things they need to work on" before they take that step. Bottom line is she's seen with pity or sometimes even as pathetic and he's seen as contemptible and just cruising until something better comes along.

Time for an adult decision. That doesn't mean marry her, but it means not putting off her and your future until "later" anymore. Make a commitment or let her move on.
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Old 06-13-2008, 12:51 PM   #114
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She wants to marry you for the financial security/stability, and as an expression of YOUR commitment to her. It seems you are unwilling to offer either guarantee.

In your case, with your apprehensions about her previous deviousness, I wouldn't go through with marriage without a prenup. If she drags her feet on this, it's clear that she cares more about the financial guarantees than your commitment to her.
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Old 06-13-2008, 01:48 PM   #115
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She wants to marry you for the financial security/stability, and as an expression of YOUR commitment to her. It seems you are unwilling to offer either guarantee.

In your case, with your apprehensions about her previous deviousness, I wouldn't go through with marriage without a prenup. If she drags her feet on this, it's clear that she cares more about the financial guarantees than your commitment to her.

Run, "Judy," run! Don't join the ranks of women who didn't find time to get their own lawyer's review of the prenup and years later must listen to an opposition attorney say, "she signed it!"

IMO a prenup is there only to circumvent the meaning of "the piece of paper." I look at a prenup paper and I say, "that is not a marriage." Also, FYI (in Cal, for one) you cannot sign away your rights to spousal and child support.

It strikes me as patently unfair for Fed to hold this over her head. He says the (marriage) paper doesn't matter, b.s.! B.S, b.s., especially since he's insisting on a prenup. I don't know if their state is a community property state but if it is, this lack of paper would have already cut her out of eight years of the acquisition of property they both contributed to. Getting the cow's milk for free is one thing but to take all the slaughterhouse profit is.... (fill in the blank).
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Old 06-13-2008, 02:25 PM   #116
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Run, "Judy," run! Don't join the ranks of women who didn't find time to get their own lawyer's review of the prenup and years later must listen to an opposition attorney say, "she signed it!"

IMO a prenup is there only to circumvent the meaning of "the piece of paper." I look at a prenup paper and I say, "that is not a marriage." Also, FYI (in Cal, for one) you cannot sign away your rights to spousal and child support.

It strikes me as patently unfair for Fed to hold this over her head. He says the (marriage) paper doesn't matter, b.s.! B.S, b.s., especially since he's insisting on a prenup. I don't know if their state is a community property state but if it is, this lack of paper would have already cut her out of eight years of the acquisition of property they both contributed to. Getting the cow's milk for free is one thing but to take all the slaughterhouse profit is.... (fill in the blank).
So, you're saying that the Fed should get married and not get a prenup? I'm not trying to be obtuse, I just had some trouble picking our your advice.

This is how I see it... A marriage is a contract. The property that the fed owns is... well, it's owned by him (judging from his posts). The property was acquired via a contract. A prenuptial agreement, as I understand it, merely offers the 2 participants to alter some terms of the marriage contract. It appears that the Fed would like to alter the terms of traditional marriage, which is part of the reason he is probably avoiding it (besides the general trust issues). He's wealthy (from what has been said), been cheated on in the past, and doesn't want to marry someone who is interested in his money and will drop him once married.
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Old 06-13-2008, 03:05 PM   #117
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So, you're saying that the Fed should get married and not get a prenup?....
No, I'm not giving Fed any advice. (That was venting!). Where is the advice to Fed, in "run, 'Judy,' run"?

I'm saying that anyone who signs a prenup drawn up by the other party's attorney should at minimum have it reviewed by their own attorney, that is an atty. who represents only him or herself, not the potential spouse's atty who drew up the prenup, or worse, not an atty who is passed off as representing both of them; at mid level postpone the wedding; at max call it off.

My real problem with prenups is the coercive last minute nature of them and the implicit distrust. The best prenups merely restate state law, e.g. they may spell out what separate property exists. Do you think that a prenup starts the marriage off on a better footing? Obviously, I don't.

I don't get your comment that the property is owned by Fed when he has lived with her for 8 years--should she morally have no share in the benefits of the property acquired during those 8 years?
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Old 06-13-2008, 03:09 PM   #118
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As the World Turns...
this is more the jerry springer show.

synopsis in tv listing: what a mess!

jerry's end of show advice: clean up your house before you invite over company.
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Old 06-13-2008, 05:14 PM   #119
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No, I'm not giving Fed any advice. (That was venting!). Where is the advice to Fed, in "run, 'Judy,' run"?

I'm saying that anyone who signs a prenup drawn up by the other party's attorney should at minimum have it reviewed by their own attorney, that is an atty. who represents only him or herself, not the potential spouse's atty who drew up the prenup, or worse, not an atty who is passed off as representing both of them; at mid level postpone the wedding; at max call it off.

My real problem with prenups is the coercive last minute nature of them and the implicit distrust. The best prenups merely restate state law, e.g. they may spell out what separate property exists. Do you think that a prenup starts the marriage off on a better footing? Obviously, I don't.

I don't get your comment that the property is owned by Fed when he has lived with her for 8 years--should she morally have no share in the benefits of the property acquired during those 8 years?

Thought I had posted this, but it seems to not be here....

I think Paul McCartney would loved to have had a prenup....
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Old 06-13-2008, 08:35 PM   #120
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....

I think Paul McCartney would loved to have had a prenup....
It's probably too late to sue his attorney for malpractice.

"Let it be," Paul.
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