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10-25-2011, 08:18 PM
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#1
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Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Waimanalo, HI
Posts: 1,881
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Grammar and logic
This is from the thread on This COLA has no Fizz
Quote:
Originally Posted by thefinancebuff
False premise. COLA is never meant to jump-start the economy.
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It's not a false premise, because it is not a premise.
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Greg (retired in 2010 at age 68, state pension)
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10-25-2011, 08:53 PM
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#2
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Confused about dryer sheets
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Manhattan Beach
Posts: 4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by REWahoo
Halloween is approaching and we're being haunted by the ghost of Emeritus...
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ghost of Emeritus or maybe just incorrect
OP stated: If you are counting on seniors to help jump-start the economy [because of COLA]... forget about it.
Correct me if I'm wrong... OP shoots the notion down, but anyone that happens to believe the "if" *is* stating an implied premise -- "increased spending will improve the economy", and in support of that conclusion "a COLA increase is an increase in spending (or sufficient increase in spending)".
And yes, this is obviously more of an OT English Lesson , but inquiring minds...
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10-25-2011, 08:58 PM
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#3
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Administrator
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: N. Yorkshire
Posts: 34,054
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ertj
ghost of Emeritus or maybe just incorrect
OP stated: If you are counting on seniors to help jump-start the economy [because of COLA]... forget about it.
Correct me if I'm wrong... OP shots the notion down, but anyone that happens to believe the "if" *is* stating an implied premise -- "increased spending will improve the economy", and in support of that conclusion "a COLA increase is an increase in spending".
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I'm pretty sure GregLee is correct about the grammar. It's just that it gets pretty tedious when posters continually correct grammar and spelling of other members.
btw - " OP shots the notion down" ??
did you mean " OP shot the notion down" or " OP shoots the notion down"
__________________
Retired in Jan, 2010 at 55, moved to England in May 2016
Enough private pension and SS income to cover all needs
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10-25-2011, 09:07 PM
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#4
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Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Waimanalo, HI
Posts: 1,881
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ertj
OP stated: If you are counting on seniors to help jump-start the economy [because of COLA]... forget about it.
Correct me if I'm wrong... OP shoots the notion down, but anyone that happens to believe the "if" *is* stating an implied premise -- "increased spending will improve the economy", and in support of that conclusion "a COLA increase is an increase in spending (or sufficient increase in spending)".
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That reasoning is a little tricky, isn't it?. What follows "if" is not "increased spending will improve the economy", but actually "you are counting on seniors to help jump-start the economy because ...". . And if the sentence after "if" is the premise of an argument, what's the conclusion? . "Forget about it!"?
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Greg (retired in 2010 at age 68, state pension)
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10-25-2011, 09:11 PM
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#5
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Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Waimanalo, HI
Posts: 1,881
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan
btw - "OP shots the notion down" ??
did you mean "OP shot the notion down" or "OP shoots the notion down"
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Tsk, tsk.
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Greg (retired in 2010 at age 68, state pension)
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10-26-2011, 10:43 AM
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#6
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Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Waimanalo, HI
Posts: 1,881
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Well, folks, grammar is what I did for 40 years, so it interests me. Besides, the relationship between the premise of an argument and the antecedent of an if-construction has more to do with logic than with grammar. Anyone interested at all in logic?
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Greg (retired in 2010 at age 68, state pension)
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10-26-2011, 12:34 PM
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#7
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Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Waimanalo, HI
Posts: 1,881
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Well, it certainly shows there isn't much interest, since I just pointed out that it isn't a matter of grammar. Clearly, no one is listening.
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Greg (retired in 2010 at age 68, state pension)
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10-26-2011, 12:43 PM
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#8
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 17,203
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GregLee
Well, it certainly shows there isn't much interest, since I just pointed out that it isn't a matter of grammar. Clearly, no one is listening.
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I am...
Logic....
PS... I kind of like the grammar issues also... it might be to late to fix me, but at least I might stop passing along bad info if I read it... like the one or two spaces after a sentence...
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10-26-2011, 01:45 PM
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#9
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gone traveling
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: DFW
Posts: 7,586
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GregLee
Well, it certainly shows there isn't much interest, since I just pointed out that it isn't a matter of grammar. Clearly, no one is listening.
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Is it philosophy (logic) or linguistics
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10-26-2011, 02:10 PM
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#10
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Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Waimanalo, HI
Posts: 1,881
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DFW_M5
Is it philosophy (logic) or linguistics
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Logic (not philosophy). A premise can be converted into an "if" antecedent by the logical rule of implication introduction, or an antecedent into a premise, by the logical rule of modus ponens. So there's a relationship. But they're not the same, because statements (where antecedents are) are not logically like arguments (where premises are). You can attack an argument by showing that its premise is false, but you can't appropriately attack an implication statement by showing that its antecedent is false. This is why I disagreed with the contention that the article under discussion had a false premise.
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Greg (retired in 2010 at age 68, state pension)
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10-26-2011, 02:17 PM
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#11
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Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Waimanalo, HI
Posts: 1,881
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DFW_M5
Is it philosophy (logic) or linguistics
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[I replied to this in the other thread before the move. Here is what I wrote there:]
Logic (not philosophy). A premise can be converted into an "if" antecedent by the logical rule of implication introduction, or an antecedent into a premise, by the logical rule of modus ponens. So there's a relationship. But they're not the same, because statements (where antecedents are) are not logically like arguments (where premises are). You can attack an argument by showing that its premise is false, but you can't appropriately attack an implication statement by showing that its antecedent is false. This is why I disagreed with the contention that the article under discussion had a false premise.
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Greg (retired in 2010 at age 68, state pension)
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10-26-2011, 03:40 PM
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#12
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Chicago
Posts: 13,151
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Texas Proud
it might be to late to fix me,
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Why yes, yes it is!
But you're loved and appreciated just the way you are..........
Edit: BTW, it's too late, not to late.
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"I wasn't born blue blood. I was born blue-collar." John Wort Hannam
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10-26-2011, 03:46 PM
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#13
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Administrator
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Chicagoland
Posts: 40,584
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GregLee
Well, folks, grammar is what I did for 40 years, so it interests me.
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Wrong tense. You're still doing it.
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10-26-2011, 03:52 PM
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#14
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 7,746
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That thread was struck by fizzy logic.
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Retired in 2013 at age 33. Keeping busy reading, blogging, relaxing, gaming, and enjoying the outdoors with my wife and 3 kids (8, 13, and 15).
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10-26-2011, 03:54 PM
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#15
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Texas: No Country for Old Men
Posts: 50,004
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GregLee, perhaps you should update your avatar to more accurately reflect your calling.
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Numbers is hard
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10-26-2011, 03:58 PM
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#16
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Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Waimanalo, HI
Posts: 1,881
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelB
Wrong tense. You're still doing it.
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No, I'm not. I've gone to some pains to show that the issue I raised was not one of grammar. Having studied grammar for so long, I probably have got a pretty good idea of what it is not.
__________________
Greg (retired in 2010 at age 68, state pension)
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10-26-2011, 03:58 PM
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#17
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Hooverville
Posts: 22,983
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GregLee
by the logical rule of modus ponens.
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Oh baby, modus ponens!
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"As a general rule, the more dangerous or inappropriate a conversation, the more interesting it is."-Scott Adams
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10-26-2011, 04:03 PM
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#18
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Chicago
Posts: 13,151
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GregLee
No, I'm not. I've gone to some pains to show that the issue I raised was not one of grammar. Having studied grammar for so long, I probably have got a pretty good idea of what it is not.
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There Gregster, fixed it fer ya! Ya don't need ta "got" a pretty good idea, just have it.
__________________
"I wasn't born blue blood. I was born blue-collar." John Wort Hannam
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10-26-2011, 04:05 PM
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#19
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Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 1,428
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Huh? Makes me glad I missed the original screening.
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10-26-2011, 04:07 PM
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#20
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Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Waimanalo, HI
Posts: 1,881
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Quote:
Originally Posted by REWahoo
GregLee, perhaps you should update your avatar to more accurately reflect your calling.
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The sort of grammar I have done is about understanding why people talk the way they do. It has nothing whatever to do with finding those who break rules or somehow improving their behavior. So I don't think your suggested avatar would be good for me. Like many of you, I have my own class prejudices about proper speech, but if I express those prejudices, occasionally, it is unrelated to my background in grammar.
__________________
Greg (retired in 2010 at age 68, state pension)
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