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Old 08-30-2009, 09:25 PM   #81
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Well, they didn't just hatch so if they are not bent on career destruction what else would they say?

Ha
Read the articles - I'm not saying the officers said, "gee, they are ok."

I'm saying they were using very strong language, not CYA PC bovine by-product.

"I don't need to check the NYTImes... " <- notmuchlonger

Geez, I hope you don't run your financial life based on samples of one!

ta,
mew
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Old 08-30-2009, 10:00 PM   #82
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.....for you Purron........ahh what the heck, here's another one.....
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Old 08-30-2009, 10:09 PM   #83
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Shawn, I only asked about problems with women because many of your posts on several threads have the same theme--women get everything, men get screwed--so you seem to feel quite strongly about that. When I feel strongly about something there's usually a reason, so I just wondered where you're coming from. No need to share.
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Old 08-30-2009, 11:04 PM   #84
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I'm not interested in joining any battle of the sexes, but I believe one reason that women have never been subjected to battlefield duty in the military is ...sex. Combining men and women usually results in distraction (for lack of a better word), particularly at the ages subject to the draft.
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Old 08-31-2009, 01:09 AM   #85
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My stars and little comets (Nords! Reference!), how fast this thread grew.

Up here in Cowtown, in the Islamic Republic of Canadistan, I am greatly distressed about the repression of women in Afghanistan and other radical Islamic countries. (I do not include Pakistan in this category. I have very western Pakkie friends who honor women as equals and value the education of women. Iran is similar. However both are under hostile pressure from the Islamofascists.)

The issue is hot here because there are so many immigrants from the Islamic world and their home-town problems are in the news. It rankles me that the Taliban is trying to send women and girls back to the stone age.

One of the problems is that the radical Islamists are trying to impose their standards in Canada (and Ontario isn't bright enough to defend itself. Allah help us all).

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Old 08-31-2009, 06:40 AM   #86
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Thanks. I needed that
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Old 08-31-2009, 09:21 AM   #87
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Shawn, I only asked about problems with women because many of your posts on several threads have the same theme--women get everything, men get screwed--so you seem to feel quite strongly about that. When I feel strongly about something there's usually a reason, so I just wondered where you're coming from. No need to share.
Why does someone have to "have a problem" to comment and provide some balance to a post? Especially when many of those responses were factual (his draft lottery observation)?

While it didn't click with me immediately, I can see Shawn's point - the post/title don't simply celebrate women's "right to vote", they celebrate women's "equality". Shawn and others have brought up some reasonable issues of what they see as non-equality. They were not meaningless, unfounded rants, but ... well samclem said it very well...


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FWIW, I'm not seeing the 'beefing against women' in Shawn's posts. I see some well stated, albeit controversial and non-PC, observations about the disparate treatment of men and women.
Maybe we could turn this around at this point? BWE, do you have a problem with men discussing these equality/non-equality issues regarding women? I don't mean to drag this out either, but you did post again, so take it as a rhetorical question. I'll get back to my house remodeling now.

-ERD50
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Old 08-31-2009, 09:43 AM   #88
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I think Brewer1234 has said it all.
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Old 08-31-2009, 11:27 AM   #89
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Probably multiples of the men who self-report as such. How many men want to live up to the fact that they were hospitalized by their female sparring partner?

As for Shawn harshing on women, come off it. The guy makes a case for the poor treatment of men with zero attention to it by wider society. Who is getting laid off in this recession? Who works the dangerous and filthy jobs in this country? Who gets stuck in the front lines? Which gender now makes up a minority of college kids? And as for what happens if a man tries to help be an equal partner in bringing up his kids, lets just say you don't exactly get a friendly reception from the other (overwhelmingly female) involved parents.

Good to see this post Brewer. It's the way I see it too. Since I need to get along with women I mostly keep zipped about the gender injustice I see. If one of them in real life gets too enthusiastic (and idiotic) I just make a note of the fact in her dossier.

A note about female on male violence. Get to know some cracker chicks. They are are pretty good with skillets and knives. Also, when a heterosexual guy shows up in the ER with a meat fork in his back, generally it isn't some other guy who put it there.

I really can't blame any of the guys who head to less developed countries where things can be different though I can see why older American women would jump all lover it as it might be a bit threatening. Remember though, wherever you are it is best to try really hard not to piss off a woman.

Many men are way less enthusiastic about this brave new gender world than we might appear. Having a good BS Meter almost disqualifies one from a comfortable accommodation to modern life.

Here is an interesting website by my friend Craig Brooke-Weiss and his 2nd wife. Craig faced a tough child custody/ support situation, and he didn't back down or back away. He found a way to protect his rights and to continue to be a good and loved father.

http://www.fatherlove.com/articles/riskfactors.html

Ha
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Old 08-31-2009, 11:49 AM   #90
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Who works the dangerous and filthy jobs in this country?


Nursing is pretty high up the filthy ladder and it is predominately women !
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Old 08-31-2009, 12:39 PM   #91
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Old 08-31-2009, 01:17 PM   #92
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As for Shawn harshing on women, come off it. The guy makes a case for the poor treatment of men with zero attention to it by wider society. Who is getting laid off in this recession? Who works the dangerous and filthy jobs in this country? Who gets stuck in the front lines? Which gender now makes up a minority of college kids? And as for what happens if a man tries to help be an equal partner in bringing up his kids, lets just say you don't exactly get a friendly reception from the other (overwhelmingly female) involved parents.
You can certainly add to the list. Men routinely get screwed in family courts in divorce proceedings that are strongly pro-mother -- men are more likely to lose custody and pay child support through the nose for the privilege of losing custody. Men tend to get longer prison sentences for the same crimes and more likely to be convicted in trial. The last few decades have made it far more acceptable for a woman to have a career, even with young children, while men who would serve the homemaker role are seen as deadbeat, slacking lazy parasites who need to get a job.

Having said all that -- it's fine to note that there are plenty of areas where men are screwed in society. I guess where I'd come in is that there's a difference between (a) wanting to make sure that the move toward gender equality doesn't leave men behind and (b) acting as though it is a horrible burden to be male in today's society and that many in society are hypocrites for ignoring legitmate men's issues. There are still plenty of headwinds and inequities facing women.

And I don't think supporting the cause of "gender equity" needs to only correct injustices on one side while ignoring them on the other. If nothing else, I hope the back and forth on this thread is a reminder of that -- there are things that need to be "fixed" going both ways. Would that we were so eager to address the inequities that favor us as we are the ones that disadvantage us -- but that's just not human nature.
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Old 08-31-2009, 01:25 PM   #93
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A little fuel to the fire.....
Yesterday I read in the papers that my Company -a shipyard- in order to adapt itself to the current mandatory trend of 50/50 is preparing a plan to reach that goal at all levels of its staff.

Until a couple years ago the very few openings/vacancies avalilable in the shiphard were destined to the much needed "tough" blue collar professions. Women and men competed on equal terms on the entrance tests. Many women made it. By the way they had to lower the physical standards in order to establish real equal oportunities for both genders.

But once inside, the foreseeable haoppened: women ended up deserting the jobs they expressly competed for and transferred to confy office jobs resorting to an assortment of technical, political, gender, social reasons...few of them related to pregnancy or maternity.

At present in the shipyard women represent overall 8% of total staff, and of these only 20% are effective blue collar workers.

What´s gonna happen to the shipyard -a typical hard work environment- if it complies to the full to the legal quotas?
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Old 08-31-2009, 01:50 PM   #94
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.... Men routinely get screwed in family courts in divorce proceedings that are strongly pro-mother -- men are more likely to lose custody and pay child support through the nose for the privilege of losing custody.

....
Zig, in CA women are usually required to take vocational evaluation tests and to find suitable work upon divorce even though the promise of their marriage may have been that she be a homemaker and stay home with the children and/or that she give up her career track for the marriage & children.
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Old 08-31-2009, 02:12 PM   #95
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Since I need to get along with women I mostly keep zipped about the gender injustice I see.

Also, when a heterosexual guy shows up in the ER with a meat fork in his back, generally it isn't some other guy who put it there.

I really can't blame any of the guys who head to less developed countries where things can be different though I can see why older American women would jump all lover it as it might be a bit threatening. Remember though, wherever you are it is best to try really hard not to piss off a woman.

Ha
Okay, Ha, I'm only going to call you out on one point here--that "older women would jump all (over) it as it might be a bit threatening".

As a young woman, thank you very much, at 38, I also find some of what has been discussed to be unappealing. It doesn't require old crone status to think it unsavory, nor does one have to be a "libber" to think that there has been economic disparity in this country in the past as regards women.

And I agree wholeheartedly about the meat fork and the trying hard to get along with/not to piss off a woman.

Sarah ...who has a fine carving set with Elkhorn handles as well as a Busse combat knife.
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Old 08-31-2009, 02:25 PM   #96
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Okay, Ha, I'm only going to call you out on one point here--that "older women would jump all (over) it as it might be a bit threatening".

As a young woman, thank you very much, at 38, I also find some of what has been discussed to be unappealing. It doesn't require old crone status to think it unsavory, nor does one have to be a "libber" to think that there has been economic disparity in this country in the past as regards women.

¡Sarah, tranquilate! Your man isn't going anywhere, he already has his young woman. And a lively one at that!

Ha
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Old 08-31-2009, 03:42 PM   #97
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You can certainly add to the list. Men routinely get screwed in family courts in divorce proceedings that are strongly pro-mother -- men are more likely to lose custody and pay child support through the nose for the privilege of losing custody. Men tend to get longer prison sentences for the same crimes and more likely to be convicted in trial. The last few decades have made it far more acceptable for a woman to have a career, even with young children, while men who would serve the homemaker role are seen as deadbeat, slacking lazy parasites who need to get a job.

Having said all that -- it's fine to note that there are plenty of areas where men are screwed in society. I guess where I'd come in is that there's a difference between (a) wanting to make sure that the move toward gender equality doesn't leave men behind and (b) acting as though it is a horrible burden to be male in today's society and that many in society are hypocrites for ignoring legitmate men's issues. There are still plenty of headwinds and inequities facing women.

And I don't think supporting the cause of "gender equity" needs to only correct injustices on one side while ignoring them on the other. If nothing else, I hope the back and forth on this thread is a reminder of that -- there are things that need to be "fixed" going both ways. Would that we were so eager to address the inequities that favor us as we are the ones that disadvantage us -- but that's just not human nature.
Thanks for your post ziggy!

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Old 08-31-2009, 03:52 PM   #98
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Gender is like politics, religion, etc...we all have an opinion. Nothing wrong with that.
I got curious about something...in particular some of the public laws that have gender basis (bias?).
And of course that led me to wonder the what the gender distribution was in Congess, who passes most of these laws.
Scroll down to the second table at this link.
Population Versus Congress (Race and Gender)
The numbers in both the House and Senate are still in favor of the guys. I was actually surprised there was still a large difference.

So there you have it...
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Old 08-31-2009, 03:54 PM   #99
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Old 08-31-2009, 04:29 PM   #100
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I had no idea my thread would take the direction it has. Honestly, I wish I hadn't started this discussion. I only wanted to point out women got the vote 89 years ago which is celebrated on August 26th - my birthday. I also felt it appropriate to add my Great Grandmother's experiences as a suffragette in Kansas to the discussion. My fatal mistake was posting the Wikipedia link in the OP. At the time, I thought the link added to the understanding of the topic.

I find it remarkable how few comments centered on the actual topic I presented - women winning the right to vote in 1920. Instead, this has turned into a discussion on how men are treated unfairly.

For the record, I do think men often bear an unfair burden. I don't like it any more than the unfair treatment of any person. Clearly we have a long way to go in understanding each other.

Peace
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