Happy Women's Equality Day!

[samclem]

What do all of you think about this ¿rather extreme? sample of affirmative action?

I don't think it is a good idea.

One of the biggest problems with these affirmative action programs is the stigma they leave for everyone in the "protected" category. The people who should be maddest about this policy are the talented, hard working, well qualified women who end up in a position of high responsibility. They would have gotten the job anyway based on their record of performance, but because of policies like these no one will ever know that for sure.

The flip side: If the pool of women candidates for a set of jobs is much smaller than the number of male candidates and yet half of the openings must still be filled by women, it's highly likely that the women picked are going to be less qualified and do a less satisfactory job than the men. When people see this poor performance in action (both inside the organization and outside the organization) it reinforces every negative stereotype that is out there--people won't blame the dumb policy, they blame the "dumb" women that they see every day.

All of this seems like the most sure-fire way to hobble women (or any other "favored" group) and prevent real progress.

 

[NW-Bound]

What do all of you think about this ¿rather extreme? sample of affirmative action?

Count me in with all the posters before me. I did not know of this until now. Are there other European nations with this policy?

 

[Khan]

There are likely as many women in the armed forces who want to go into combat as there are men who don't want to--easy enough to swap them out. And I do not understand why women don't have to register for the selective service.

If there is going to be a (potential) draft, it should include men and women.

 

[freebird5825]

I don't think it is a good idea.

One of the biggest problems with these affirmative action programs is the stigma they leave for everyone in the "protected" category. The people who should be maddest about this policy are the talented, hard working, well qualified women who end up in a position of high responsibility. They would have gotten the job anyway based on their record of performance, but because of policies like these no one will ever know that for sure.

Bravo Bravo Bravo
I was not hired on a quota to the best of my knowledge, but it as h*ll sure felt like a fair number of others thought I was.
I avoided the Fed Women's Program site manager from the moment she suggested I dress for success, i.e. suit dresses and "nice" dresses.
I w*rked in a laboratory. The good guys (I was fortunate to have several really cool cow*rkers) and I cracked up at the thought of me wearing stuff like that in the lab.

 

[Notmuchlonger]

At my the last surgery center I worked at we had a co-ed locker room . It could get interesting .

You seen one hoo hoo you seen em all. And for the ones you haven't we wont go there.

 

[CuppaJoe]

....
I´m not sure I agree with these mandatory quotas.
What do all of you think about this ¿rather extreme? sample of affirmative action?

I've always loved the upside down question mark, great equal invention, ¿why can't English be more like Spanish?

 

[vicente solano]

I've always loved the upside down question mark, great equal invention, ¿why can't English be more like Spanish?

Cuppa: Don´t pay too much attention to my syntaxis. I´m not even sure I´ve expressed my doubts the right way!

 

[Purron]

I've always loved the upside down question mark, great equal invention, ¿why can't English be more like Spanish?

Yeah, I love this too CuppaJoe!

Vincente, you are so often like a breath of fresh air. The direction this thread was going was really starting to bum me out. I was OK with the joking around, but there were some serious responses that were somewhat surprising and troubling to me.

My intent in starting this thread was simply to acknowledge that women were given the right to vote 89 years ago. Nothing more, nothing less. I also wanted to share the story of my Great Grandmother who participated in the suffragette movement so long ago in the great state of Kansas.

Peace.

 

[vicente solano]

Purron: You flatter me. But you probably know the quotation that says that flattery must be pretty thick before anybody objects to it..
Most of my posts are self-serving. They are, in part, aimed at trying to get a real sense of what you Americans think about things as opposed to our way of thinking. That can explain any gaffes on my part for which I apologize.

 

[Sarah in SC]

Purron, I thought I was helping by pointing out a novel use to keep the day fresh and interesting with the topless day--I was just kidding, though.

But I, too, appreciate what your great grandmother and others did for our rights to vote!

 

[audreyh1]

No kidding. I can't imagine not being able to vote!

Audrey

 

[Shawn]

My intent in starting this thread was simply to acknowledge that women were given the right to vote 89 years ago. Nothing more, nothing less. I also wanted to share the story of my Great Grandmother who participated in the suffragette movement so long ago in the great state of Kansas.

Your point is well taken. However, the title of the thread is "Happy Women's Equality Day!". True, August 26 was declared Women's Equality Day by Bella Abzug and the US Congress in 1971 (February 30 was set aside for Men's Equality Day). However, there is little correlation between gender equality and the suffragette movement / 19th Amendment, which is why I responded to the thread. To acknowledge and/or celebrate a historical event is one thing. But for congress to equate this with "women's equality" as they did in 1971, at a time when 55,000 American men were being sent off to die in Vietnam, seems quite hypocritical. Half of these men were drafted, many out of high school. This is even more ironic considering very few of these men had the opportunity to vote. The 26th Amendment that lowered the voting age to 18 wasn't passed until mid 1971. While I was too young for the draft, my oldest brother was not. I remember watching the draft lottery on our big B&W TV. My brother seemed to know the birthdays of every one of his 300 male classmates. Every time a birthday came up, my brother would say, "that birthday belongs to so-and-so."

 

[mews]

My mother was born in 1914, so she would have been in the first group who grew up expecting to vote.

My grandmothers would have been in their 40's when they got the vote. (best guess, not checking dates)

I have NO patience for people who say,"Why vote, it makes no difference, politicians are all bad, whine, snivel, etc..."

Hey, real people died so I can vote!

ta,
mew

 

[mews]

Shawn, write your congresscritters.

I have no say on armed forces policy.

ta,
mew

 

[Bestwifeever]

My best friend in high school went into the army the day she graduated from college in 1972. She would have applied at West Point, where her brother went, but women weren't allowed in until 1976. There's your equality for you.

 

[Notmuchlonger]

My best friend in high school went into the army the day she graduated from college in 1972. She would have applied at West Point but women weren't allowed in until 1976. There's your equality for you, Shawn.

Was she able to go fill a combat role? I really wish it was equal across the board. However, I have a younger infantryman relative. Has no desire to have a woman by his side. Guess things cant really be equal can they?

 

[mews]

Notmuchlonger, go check the NYTimes - there were interesting articles recently about women in Iraq in combat roles - basically an over-stretched Army is doing creative paper-work workarounds on the definition of "combat role"

( "Was she able to fill a combat role" - er, it was, and still is against the law! Go write your congresscritters. )

The officers quoted seemed to have no problems with their female troops.

There are women offices leading men, but they can't have women under them. Very weird...

(I can remember the doom and gloom, the horror, the horror! from many quarters when the service academies started to take young women. I still look up and see the sky in its normal location. )

ta,
mew

 

[Bestwifeever]

I think back then only female nurses were on the front line (but not considered "combat"). My friend went into military intelligence.

 

[Notmuchlonger]

Notmuchlonger, go check the NYTimes - there were interesting articles recently about women in Iraq in combat roles - basically an over-stretched Army is doing creative paper-work workarounds on the definition of "combat role"

( "Was she able to fill a combat role" - er, it was, and still is against the law! Go write your congresscritters. )

The officers quoted seemed to have no problems with their female troops.

There are women offices leading men, but they can't have women under them. Very weird...

(I can remember the doom and gloom, the horror, the horror! from many quarters when the service academies started to take young women. I still look up and see the sky in its normal location. )

ta,
mew

I dont need to check the NYTimes. I can speak to a NCO who was in Iraq during the war. As far as I am concerned as a civilian. If you can bleed you should be right up on the front lines. However, speak to a grunt they might feel differently.

 

[Shawn]

Shawn, write your congresscritters.

I have no say on armed forces policy.

I frequently write my congress critters. All three of them are women. When I write about gender issues, and the discrimination men face in society, I frequently receive form letters back stating how they are champions of women's rights. Either they have warped senses of humor, or they are so closed-minded that haven't even considered that men might have issues of concern (i.e., they have no men-specific form letters).

 

[Bestwifeever]

Shawn, why the beefing against women? Your posts are pretty consistently against them. Something happen?

 

[haha]

The officers quoted seemed to have no problems with their female troops.
ta,
mew

Well, they didn't just hatch so if they are not bent on career destruction what else would they say?

Ha

 

[samclem]

Shawn, why the beefing against women? Your posts are pretty consistently against them. Something happen?

FWIW, I'm not seeing the 'beefing against women' in Shawn's posts. I see some well stated, albeit controversial and non-PC, observations about the disparate treatment of men and women.

 

[Martha]

There are some things Shawn says that I agree with and some I do not. For example, I believe that both men and women should register for selective service if we are going to have a registration. And I think children are being brought up to think of stranger adults, especially men, as dangerous when most all adults can be trusted. We shouldn't be treating men as a bunch of scary pedophiles.

But as to his comment on domestic violence equally involving violence against men by women as against women by men, this doesn't impress me as much, even if it is true. As a group, men are bigger and stronger and do more damage when they beat up women. If my spouse had chosen to beat me up there is no way I could have defended myself without a weapon. How many men end up hospitalized or severely hurt as a result of being beat up by their spouse as compared to women?

There are some issues which are difficult. The 16 year old girl (Shawn omitted her age) who had sex with the 12 year old boy and got pregnant and later was awarded child support, is a very difficult issue. The best interests of the child needs to govern. In my mind the best result would have been for the child to be adopted out by strangers. But we as a society get legitimately squeamish about too much governmental interference in parent/child relationships. We do not tend to take a child away before actual harm occurs. I can appreciate the fear that males might have that they become inadvertent or unwilling parents, but the child's interests must govern. And females have issues to. They are the ones that become pregnant. And it is very difficult in our society for a female to have a child and then say she does not want to raise it. So lots of tough issues for both sides and lots of pressures on both sides. To say the males have responsibilities and females have rights doesn't do it for me. We all have rights and responsibilities, some by law and some by societal pressure and tradition.

I also do not like to see the criminal system used to turn young men or women into "rapists" because they have sex with someone underage if they themselves are relatively close in age to the underage person.

As to equal pay for equal work, of course there should be.

 

[W2R]

And I think children are being brought up to think of stranger adults, especially men, as dangerous when most all adults can be trusted. We shouldn't be treating men as a bunch of scary pedophiles.

When I was a kid back in the 1950's, school and parents taught me, "NEVER speak to strangers! If a stranger speaks to you, do not answer them - - scream and run away." There was no gender issue there since strangers can be of either gender.

The first time a stranger approached me, I was 11 and walking down the street. A convertible with two guys in it started driving slowly beside me, matching my walking speed. One of the guys said, "Hey, beautiful, want a ride?" Guess they were near-sighted since I was just 11. I ran away.