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Old 06-15-2016, 07:35 AM   #61
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I scanned this thread title about 20 times and my brain translated it to

"Buying a Goddamn Furnace"....and I never opened it because of the anger. I hate it when my brain moves letters around like that.
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Old 06-15-2016, 10:33 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by HadEnuff View Post
I scanned this thread title about 20 times and my brain translated it to

"Buying a Goddamn Furnace"....and I never opened it because of the anger. I hate it when my brain moves letters around like that.


Hopefully, this experience does not go that way!

The sales guy was out yesterday, I still feel good about this so far. He was very straight and detailed, will provide quotes today on all the variations/options we talked about.

DW mentioned this at work, and another person used this company and was pleased. Though that doesn't mean too much to me, some people would not know a good install from another, but adds to the good reviews on Yelp.

He discussed the whole house dehumidifier, we will see, but it sounds similar in price to a 2-stage A/C, so I don't see the point in having a third system with associated potential problems. Could make a lot of sense for high humidity in cooler climates (like Trombone-Al's issue, in another thread).

-ERD50
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Old 06-15-2016, 01:20 PM   #63
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He discussed the whole house dehumidifier, we will see, but it sounds similar in price to a 2-stage A/C, so I don't see the point in having a third system with associated potential problems. Could make a lot of sense for high humidity in cooler climates (like Trombone-Al's issue, in another thread).

-ERD50
I'm confused, did you mean its a third system in addition to the heating and cooling? It goes inline, so I was thinking of everything as one integrated system. Perhaps your AC and furnace are not integrated as a single system? Take a look at this link:
Why Your Whole House Needs a Dehumidifier - Servair
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Old 06-15-2016, 01:21 PM   #64
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Hi All,


I got hung up on the loss of refrigerant ... is this the basis for the decision to replace?


If so, would it not be far less expensive to find out where the leak is? Around fittings or a seal in the compressor?


If everything else is operating normally, it would seem repair is rational approach ...


In northern IL, the big issue is heating, obviously ...will take a LONG time to pay back difference in e between 82 and 92 furnace ...??
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Old 06-15-2016, 01:53 PM   #65
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I'm confused, did you mean its a third system in addition to the heating and cooling? It goes inline, so I was thinking of everything as one integrated system. Perhaps your AC and furnace are not integrated as a single system? Take a look at this link:
Why Your Whole House Needs a Dehumidifier - Servair
A de-humidifier would be a third system, the furnace and A/C being the first two. Yes, they share a few components (air handler/blower, and some sheet metal and thermostat), but they are still separate systems. As your link says, the de-humidifier can run separate from the A/C - must have its own compressor, right?

Just because they are "integrated" into a common case does not mean they aren't separate systems. Gas furnace, electrical A/C. - not a combo heat-pump system.

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Hi All,

I got hung up on the loss of refrigerant ... is this the basis for the decision to replace?

If so, would it not be far less expensive to find out where the leak is? Around fittings or a seal in the compressor?

If everything else is operating normally, it would seem repair is rational approach ...

In northern IL, the big issue is heating, obviously ...will take a LONG time to pay back difference in e between 82 and 92 furnace ...??
Loss of refrigerant in a +24 y/o air conditioner, and a 24 y/o furnace. So I plan to replace both at the same time - there can be some benefits to this.

I wasn't very interested in going beyond the 82% furnace, but I ran the numbers and actually, it looks like ~ 3-4 year payback for the higher efficiencies, even at my conservative use of heat (turn it way down at night and when I'm out, wear sweaters and slippers most of the heating season). Maybe less with the energy star rebates. And there may some advantage to going to variable speed motor with a 2-stage A/C.

We can go a long time in summer w/o any A/C at all - but when we need it we need it! It can get 90's/90's heat/humidity for a week a few times a year. That's just uncomfortable, and our house doesn't get a lot of shade.

-ERD50
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Old 06-15-2016, 02:25 PM   #66
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.......... wear sweaters and slippers most of the heating season.........
You'll be surprised at how much warmer you'll feel with pants on.
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Old 06-15-2016, 02:58 PM   #67
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A de-humidifier would be a third system, the furnace and A/C being the first two. Yes, they share a few components (air handler/blower, and some sheet metal and thermostat), but they are still separate systems. As your link says, the de-humidifier can run separate from the A/C - must have its own compressor, right?


-ERD50
OK, I thought you were segregating those functions. I have usually just referred to everything simply as an HVAC system. I am not sure of the internal design of the dehumidifier, but assumed everything within the dehumidifier is contained within the unit itself vs using another external compressor.
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Old 06-18-2016, 10:54 AM   #68
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Update

OK, I'm going lose any DIY and LBYM cred I had (short explanation below), but I'm going ahead with the highest level the guy quoted me, and I'm not going to bother with additional quotes.

With my previous DIY repairs, I was able to stretch this furnace out to last 24 years, and the A/C is older. I'm justifying a little 'splurge' for the best comfort level, and for that, I feel we need a 2-stage A/C, and that really requires a variable speed furnace - so it adds up. I'm also going with a new whole house humidifier (previous original unit needed repairs, and the new ones are easier to open for annual cleaning). And.... we are having the compressor moved from right near the patio and under the kitchen window, to the side of the house. And.... the water heater is the original - I can't believe this thing is still functioning from 1986! The replacement water heater has a powered damper, so that will reduce air infiltration. And of course the higher eff% furnace has PVC air in and out, so less air infiltration as well. Whew!

And it turns out, the difference between his 'good' and 'better' quotes was slight (< $200, main diff was 13 vs 16 SEER) - the various rebates offset almost all of the delta. And only the 'best' included the 2-stage A/C. And the 'best' qualifies for some added discounts and another $300 in tax credits (the key is a 13 EER - different from the SEER rating - and only the Trane high end met that). And, at the high level, the difference in price between Trane and Amana (Goodman) looks like < $100 after tax adjustment, so I went Trane.

I was surprised, looking at the prices at Alpine ( alpinehomeair.com ), that going from the 80's% to 92% and to 96% actually had a pretty short payback of ~ 3-4 years, even with my stingy use of heat (turned way down at night, often low to mid 60's during the day when I'm home, maybe 68 in the evening). But there was also the comfort factor (2 stage A/C to reduce humidity and handle the hottest days, and variable speed fan for better circulation). I didn't really do the same comp with these quotes, as the higher eff% was really tied into the comfort requirements I set.

About $1400 delta (before Fed tax credit/deduction) to go up to the 2-stage A/C and higher level furnace to support that. There will be some offset in lower bills, and if the unit lasts 14 years (it should - just easy math), that's roughly $100 per year amortized, less with gas/electric savings.He took room sizes, vents sizes/amounts/ orientation, some estimates of insulation. I had told him our 80% 125,000 BTU furnace didn't seem to run much past ~ 2/3 duty cycle in even the coldest weather, and he came up with 100,000 BTU of the higher eff% models, so that makes sense to me.

Back to some aspects of my OP, yes, I still think Goodman makes a lot of sense for a DIY, but this was a big job, more than I wanted to tackle. For a basic furnace replacement, w/o having to dink with the A/C, a handy DIY would probably be well served by the Goodman, IMO. And it appears the price delta between Goodman/Amana and other brands becomes less the higher up in features/eff% you go.

I've had a lot of responsibility for extended family this past year, and it has made it near impossible to devote large blocks of time to any project, so just no way will I DIY this one (I probably wouldn't anyway - this is a big job, moving compressor, running new PVC in/out), and no, I'm not even going to spend the time/effort for multiple quotes. I got a good feeling from this guy, no pushy sales, he really knew his stuff, considered a lot of alternatives and options, and they got good reviews on-line, and we got a good reference from a friend. Tha'ts more important to me than some $ difference. At this point, I'm 'applying' all my past 'scrimp-and-save' tokens to this job. Rationalization mode ON. And of course, I'd like to get this done before the next heat wave, or company comes during even a warm spell.

Install is next Friday, looks like we won't have too much hot weather before then, and the nights stay cool, so that helps.

Only downside other than $$$ (and he laughed at me for this) - I have to give up my old-school mercury Honeywell thermostat! The two-stage looks at temperature deltas (though it can be set up for a timed function I think). Just like volume controls on audio gear, I like to just turn a knob, not push buttons up and down. Hopefully the UI on the thermostat is good, and cranking up/down a few degrees, or 10 degrees at night is easy (no, I don't use timed or 'learned' functions - I don't have a schedule to learn).

I guess I should have done a tl;dr version, but I didn't. Hah!

-ERD50
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Old 06-18-2016, 10:57 AM   #69
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OK, I'm going lose any DIY and LBYM cred I had (short explanation below), but I'm going ahead with the highest level the guy quoted me, and I'm not going to bother with additional quotes.
ERD50's account has obviously been hijacked. I hope his identity hasn't also been stolen and someone isn't using his credit card to pay for lap dances...
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Old 06-18-2016, 11:01 AM   #70
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ERD50's account has obviously been hijacked. I hope his identity hasn't also been stolen and someone isn't using his credit card to pay for lap dances...
Hah! Is that why I'm seeing ads for lap dances in the banner above? (I turned off ad-block on this site for a while as an experiment). At least that money isn't being wasted!

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Old 06-18-2016, 11:15 AM   #71
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Good for you, live a little and get the good stuff!

Yeah you don't want to DIY a HVAC, you have to have special equipment just to drain the refrigerant from the old one w/o releasing into the atmosphere. Not to mention the stuff is big and heavy and you'll hurt yourself. And a day in the hospital would cost more than the whole install anyway.

Enjoy your new comfort level -
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Old 06-18-2016, 11:45 AM   #72
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Now you just need a wireless thermostat to control from your smart phone, and you will be in retirement heaven. Enjoy the new system!
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Old 06-18-2016, 11:53 AM   #73
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All the research you did, and you explanation of your requirements to the tech, probably went a long way toward reducing the chances of getting ripped off. It sounds like you'll get a great unit that will probably keep you guys comfortable for another couple of decades.
Don't get rid of that old thermostat--put it on your display shelf next to the dial phone and the incandescent bulb for show-and-tell when young-uns come over. You can even take off the cover and show them what mercury looks like. Or leave it installed as the "placebo/placation/decoy thermostat" for use when "always hot/always cold" visitors come over.
I hope the installation goes well.
I can't believe you are gonna pay somebody to have all this fun.

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Old 06-18-2016, 01:08 PM   #74
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Don't get rid of that old thermostat--put it on your display shelf next to the dial phone and the incandescent bulb for show-and-tell when young-uns come over. You can even take off the cover and show them what mercury looks like. Or leave it installed as the "placebo/placation/decoy thermostat" for use when "always hot/always cold" visitors come over.
Replaced a 20 y.o. gaspac on the roof last month. Not a lot of choice for 5 ton residential two stage units so I went with Trane. The old mercury thermostat had been replaced on the last install. This time a new wi-fi thermostat was installed and it seems to work quite well. The wi-fi is nice for remote control using your smartphone. The thermostat can be used to control other items in the home via the Nexia system. Also has a lit screen which is far easier to see than the old 1990's digital thermostat. With record heat near 120F this weekend, we got the new system just in time!
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Old 06-18-2016, 01:51 PM   #75
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I think you will really like the variable speed fan and the two stage AC. I'm amazed at how closely my system keeps the temperature to the set point and how well the AC dehumidifies.
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Old 06-18-2016, 02:37 PM   #76
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Now you just need a wireless thermostat to control from your smart phone, and you will be in retirement heaven. Enjoy the new system!

Yea... but.... when I got a split system (one unit with two ducts groups) I had to replace my controllers... I got good ones, but the wifi ones were about $125 more each!!! Nope, I can go and push a button...

However, I do not do that very often, so am OK with what I have and do not need the info that the wifi ones give... maybe ERD50 will since he seems to keep track of everything...
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Old 06-18-2016, 06:31 PM   #77
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OK ERD50- If you don;t mind, can you say what tonnage, and approximate costs?

Thanks!
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Update - it's installed and cooling!
Old 06-25-2016, 10:47 PM   #78
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Update - it's installed and cooling!

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I think you will really like the variable speed fan and the two stage AC. I'm amazed at how closely my system keeps the temperature to the set point and how well the AC dehumidifies.
Yep. Got it installed yesterday, weather was pretty mild. Today it got hot, but not crazy hot, and humidity was mild, (near 90 F, but only 50-60% humidity, but sunny, and very little west shade on our house).

So the install went well. A truck showed up early and (gently!) dropped off everything in the driveway so it was ready - the installers (two young guys that seemed well versed in everything they had to do) got here at the prescribed time, and we walked through everything, and they got to work. I did some prep, cut back some bushes where they had to run the lines to the compressor (we moved it from where it was - more on that later), and cleared out my projects in the basement so they could get the furnace and water heater in/out easily. They said (and I was pre-warned) that it might go into Saturday, so they planned to hold off on the water heater install, and let that roll into Saturday if needed. But they got it all done in one long day - they were here from 7:30 AM to ~ 7 PM, and kept busy the whole time (they had pizza delivered ~ 4PM).

I even threw in a change on them (after the old AC was pulled out, we rethought about where we wanted the PVC in/out for the furnace positioned). No problem, they checked it out, said they could do it (it was more work for them), and they got it done. Everything was done neatly, no short cuts that I could see. And yes, I'm pretty picky, though I will give pros a little slack in that they have to get a job done and get out- a DIY can have flexibility to stretch things out over a few days (weeks, months, years? in my case) if needed.

The big surprise - after they unpacked the AC compressor - that thing was HUGE! The brochure never shows it with anything to compare it to. Our old one was probably below waist level height, this thing is the almost the size of a refrigerator (about shoulder height)! Actually 37" wide, 24" deep, and 53" high. It's a monster. I'm so glad we decided to have it moved around the side of the house, off the garage. I was a little concerned, as moving it puts it closer to the neighbors, but when it was started to test it, I couldn't believe how quiet it was. I thought, and verified today, if I'm 10 feet away from it, the neighbor's AC is about the same volume as this thing. I was in the back yard today when it started, and I didn't even notice. No, no problem for the neighbors.

I got a chance to peer inside it today through the grill vents - it's almost empty! The motor/compressor look to be smaller than a couple one gallon paint cans. A lot of empty space, but all the perimeter is taken up with the coils which have what looks like aluminum 'hairs' to distribute the heat - looks kind of like shiny Christmas tree garland. I guess that is what is needed for the high efficiency. And a large fan on top (but the motor is just 1/5 HP).

I knew they said I needed a new high-tech thermostat to take advantage of all the features, and they upgraded me to the full wi-fi enabled version. I started to have second thoughts about all this when I saw all the complexity of this thermostat - a bunch of set up options (they did that though), and so many options. But the basics are pretty easy. And after I had a chance to get familiar with it, I realized that there isn't much extra hardware in all this. But having a 2 stage AC (not sure if that even involves extra valves or anything - maybe just a low -power mode?), and a variable speed blower, plus a humidity sensor opens up a LOT of control possibilities. So really, the complexity is in the thermostat controller, I think. If that is reliable (a Trane XL850 with Nexia apps).

Sooooo, I started it up ~ 11AM today, as it reached ~ 78-79 inside. It ran for about an hour to bring it down to the 76 setting. And the 'intelligence' became obvious right away. The default humidity target is ~ 45-55%, so it ran at the stage 1 mode and with a 45% blower speed to bring down the humidity. After about an hour, it decided to go to stage 2 to get the house to target temperature. After that, the cycles were more like 10 minutes on, 15-20 minutes off. Sometimes, it ran at 65% blower (I guess it decided humidity was close enough, and prioritized cooling?). I noticed the variable speed fan would run a few minutes at a very slow speed at the end of the cycle to squeak out the last bit of cooling from that coil.

So with this running almost always at stage 1 mode, and at a reasonable duty cycle, it looks like I will have the reserve I hoped for for the really hot days, when we inevitably have a large group over.

Bottom line - it really performed as I had hoped, and quieter than I expected. Got the humidity down. I later selected 'circulate' mode for the fan, which will run the fan for a minimum of 30 minutes out of an hour, to help keep the upstairs cool. I might just set the fan 'ON" for tonight. I have no measured yet, but I understand the VS fans take very little power in these circulate modes.

Time will tell, but I think these things could be as reliable as the old units. Variable speed motors are established technology. Devil's in the details.

So far, very happy. Again, I really was going for comfort, but that required the features in the high efficiency units. That added dollars, but the various rebates and tax credits look like they keep the payback to ~ 4 years. Not bad (if it is reliable).

Oh, the water heater has a power damper on it, that qualified it for a credit, and probably makes sense to reduce air infiltration.


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OK ERD50- If you don;t mind, can you say what tonnage, and approximate costs?

Thanks!
The AC is 4 ton (old unit was 3.7 ton, but probably never ran optimally), and in stage 1 is 2.8 ton (70%).

I'm almost afraid to post the price

This install was moving the compressor ~ 50 feet (closer to electrical source, so that was no issue, but lots of refrigerant lines to run, and a somewhat complicated run - through the basement, crawl, out the wall, over and around the side of the house), PVC in/out vents added, old stuff removed, some duct adaptations. New humidifier and smart thermostat. Lots of details that they handled very well. High eff, 2 stage furnace with VS fan, new water heater.

OK, $10,000 ( they took my 2% rewards AMEX though). Yep, that's a lot. Should get a $500 tax credit. Yes, big bucks, but this was a big job, and everyone seemed very professional. Hopefully, I feel the same a few years down the road.

Just started playing with the connected apps. DW is already tired of hearing me talk about reported duty cycles, fan speeds, and humidity targets But she said she is very comfortable, so that's good.

Any other questions?

-ERD50
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Old 06-25-2016, 11:29 PM   #79
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RE Huge AC compressor units. They have been getting larger since the 1970s as the SEER goes up. The first unit in my house in Houston, was about 2foot tall 2 foot wide and 3 foot long. The next unit got bigger and the final unit was bigger still (4 ton units). The last unit there was installed in the mid ninteys and i sold the house in 2005. Interestingly at my current house when I replaced the units they got taller but with a smaller footprint as instead of a distinct compartment for the compressor it was put in the middle of the empty space in the unit.
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Old 06-26-2016, 09:49 AM   #80
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RE Huge AC compressor units. They have been getting larger since the 1970s as the SEER goes up. The first unit in my house in Houston, was about 2foot tall 2 foot wide and 3 foot long. The next unit got bigger and the final unit was bigger still (4 ton units). The last unit there was installed in the mid ninteys and i sold the house in 2005. Interestingly at my current house when I replaced the units they got taller but with a smaller footprint as instead of a distinct compartment for the compressor it was put in the middle of the empty space in the unit.
Recently had two 2.5 ton Rheem units installed. These have large fan blades, with each unit being approximately 35" x 35" x 26". 16 SEER.
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