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Re: High-carb, low-glycemic-index diet best for weight loss and CVD risk reduction
Old 09-02-2006, 06:29 PM   #21
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Re: High-carb, low-glycemic-index diet best for weight loss and CVD risk reduction

i basically use a low fat high carb diet and enjoy my sweets.....
in fact im a bit of a gym rat ...im 175lbs and 12% body fat,down from over 220 6 years ago ,,people look at the sweets my wife and i eat on the weekends and go we can't believe you go to the gym and eat like this....we go we go to the gym sooooo we can eat like this............
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Re: High-carb, low-glycemic-index diet best for weight loss and CVD risk reducti
Old 09-02-2006, 06:59 PM   #22
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Re: High-carb, low-glycemic-index diet best for weight loss and CVD risk reducti

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Originally Posted by mathjak107
there are so few long term success stories over all from people who were on atkins for long long periods of time,in fact everyone i knew who was on it has given up on it at this point.... and fat calories take 3x the energy to break them down..you can only eat 1/3 the volume of fat ladden foods that you can for carbs or protein...that makes a big difference long term in weight loss and whether you will stick to the plan..being hungry is a pain to the body and in order for any eating plan to work your body has to be full or all bets are off
mathjak,

I guess I'm the exception. I have been on a very strict version of Adkins (less than 40 grams of carbs a day) for about 5 years. Prior to this I was on a low fat diet and my weight was up to 197 and I was hungry all the time. After being on the diet for six months my weight was down to 183, which I have maintained within a few pounds ever since. I don't crave carbs any more. I have no problem with cardio workouts. I swim one mile in around 32 minutes 4 times a week. A typical day's meals would be:
Breakfast: Eggbeater cheese omlet, coffee
Lunch: 6 ounces of chicken, 3 ounces of cheese, pork rinds, diet coke
Dinner: 8 ounce steak, green salad, diet coke
Snacks (2 to 3 a day) a handful of macadamia nuts or almonds, or string cheese, or sugar free jello.
Other: Coffee with artificial sweetner two to four cups a day. Diet coke (2)
This diet can get a little monotonous but I am a creature of habit and don't feel the need to "cheat" very often. It is rare for me to say "oh no, do I have to have a steak AGAIN?"

Another effect of this diet for me has been a complete absence of stomach distress I frequently experience before.

I realize that this diet is very high in saturated fat and I may be really clogging up my arteries but the diet works so well for me in all other ways that, on balance, I think it is worth it.

GRUMPY
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Re: High-carb, low-glycemic-index diet best for weight loss and CVD risk reduction
Old 09-02-2006, 09:53 PM   #23
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Re: High-carb, low-glycemic-index diet best for weight loss and CVD risk reduction

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Originally Posted by wab
Er, yes, that works.* * But I have to ask: did you bother to read the article?* *It's not all about calories.
I wasn't able to access the article; only an abstract. I would really like to see the article itself, as what little they mentioned is odd. As I remember, they gave mean weight loss for each group, and % losing over a certain amount. They gave lipid chemistry for selected groups. They described the results as high carb, low GI best, but it appears that on at least one dimension, in the high protein group the hghi GI group had better results.


“In this study, 129 overweight or obese young adults (body mass index [BMI], ≥ 25 kg/m2) were randomized to 1 of 4 reduced-fat, high-fiber diets for 12 weeks, and changes in weight, body composition, and blood chemistry profile were studied. Diets 1 and 2 were high carbohydrate (55% of total energy intake), with high and low GIs, respectively, whereas diets 3 and 4 were high protein (25% of total energy intake), with high and low GIs, respectively. The glycemic load was highest in diet 1 and lowest in diet 4.
Mean weight loss was similar in all groups (diet 1, -4.2% ± 0.6%; diet 2, -5.5% ± 0.5%; diet 3, -6.2% ± 0.4%; and diet 4, -4.8% ± 0.7%; P = .09). However, the proportion of subjects in each group who lost 5% or more of body weight varied significantly by diet (diet 1, 31%; diet 2, 56%; diet 3, 66%; and diet 4, 33%; P = .01). Women on diets 2 and 3 lost approximately 80% more fat mass (-4.5 ± 0.5 [mean ± SE] and -4.6 ± 0.5 kg) than did those on diet 1 (-2.5 ± 0.5 kg; P = .007).
Mean low-density lipoprotein cholesterol levels decreased in the diet 2 group (-6.6 ± 3.9 mg/dL [-0.17 ± 0.10 mmol/L]) but increased in the diet 3 group (+10.0 ± 3.9 mg/dL [+0.26 ± 0.10 mmol/L]; P = .02). Goals for energy distribution were not achieved exactly, in that both CHO groups ate less fat, and the diet 2 group ate more fiber.
"Both high-protein and low-GI regimens increase body fat loss, but cardiovascular risk reduction is optimized by a high-carbohydrate, low-GI diet," the authors write. “

So the two best groups for weight loss were 3 and 4, respectively low GI and high GI. Sounds random to me. And for the LDL reduction, they are a bit sparse with the details. My guess is the details would mess up their pretty summary.

It appears that one needs a sub to Archives of Int Medicine to read the full article. In general, I do not trust summaries or abstracts. These guys know what results will fly and which ones won't; so even when they are not outright massaging data, they all too often are selectively abstracting, leaving out anything which doesn't fit the thesis.

These are pretty small groups too- 129 people into 4 groups. Random variation in body chemistry of the participants could have had a large effect. In addition, they do not mention how many subjects finished the study

I don't doubt at all that low GI diets are beneficial, I am just not sure how much of that or anything else is proven by this study ( at least what I have been able to read.)

Ha
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Re: High-carb, low-glycemic-index diet best for weight loss and CVD risk reduction
Old 09-02-2006, 10:24 PM   #24
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Re: High-carb, low-glycemic-index diet best for weight loss and CVD risk reduction


"Mean weight loss was similar in all groups (diet 1, -4.2% ± 0.6%; diet 2, -5.5% ± 0.5%; diet 3, -6.2% ± 0.4%; and diet 4, -4.8% ± 0.7%; P = .09)."

This tells me that if your looking to lose weight: "a calorie is a calorie".




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Re: High-carb, low-glycemic-index diet best for weight loss and CVD risk reduction
Old 09-02-2006, 11:15 PM   #25
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Re: High-carb, low-glycemic-index diet best for weight loss and CVD risk reduction

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Originally Posted by HaHa
I don't doubt at all that low GI diets are beneficial, I am just not sure how much of that or anything else is proven by this study ( at least what I have been able to read.)
Yeah, there are still a lot of outstanding questions.* *But there have been similar studies with similar results.* *The biggest benefit for the low-GI diet seems to be for people who are already overweight and showing some insulin resistance.* *The benefits aren't as clear for normal people.* * My only concern about high protein would be in kidney load, but the take-home message I get is that:

1) Body fat is bad for you.
2) If you want to lose body fat, go with a low GI diet.

Here's another study that looks at post-meal effects of various glycemic loads:

Glycemic and insulinemic meal responses modulate postprandial hepatic and intestinal lipoprotein accumulation in obese, insulin-resistant subjects
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Re: High-carb, low-glycemic-index diet best for weight loss and CVD risk reduction
Old 09-02-2006, 11:33 PM   #26
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Re: High-carb, low-glycemic-index diet best for weight loss and CVD risk reduction

A calorie is a calorie is a calorie although actually it is a kilocalorie if you want to be precise.

Differences in kinetices (i.e. how fast a reaction proceeds to thermodyanamic equilibrium) not thermodynamics is the point of a low glycemic diet.

Nothing violates thermodynamics. *But thermodynamics also says that all of the aluminum on the planet should spontaneously *react with atmospheric oxygen to form Al2O3 and diamond on the ring on you finger should revert to graphite. *These reactions don't happen immediately because of kinetic limitations. *i.e. *They are taking place but only very slowly. *(If you really want to show ever lasting love to your significant give them graphite. *It will also help on the path to ER.)

You can have a given number of calories of natural gas and the same number of *calories of coal and they will both release the same amount of energy when they burn. *But which do you think will burn faster when exposed to the heat from a match. *The natural gas of couse. *It would ignite quicly maybe burn you but you might be cold a short time later after the heat dissipates whereas if you can get the coal to burn, it will burn at a much slower rate and keep you warm for longer and that is how the glycemic index works.

Foods that have a high glycemic index burn quickly and are converted to fat if the energy isn't used and then leave you hungry a short time later. *Low glycemic index food burn slower so you don't get as hungry. *So if consume 3000 calories a day and burn 2500 calories a day you will gain 500 calories a day of fat not matter if the food your eat is low glycemic or high glycemic but eating low glycemic index foods may help you consume only 2000 calories a day and thereby lose 500 calories a day of fat because you will not feel as hungry.

MB * *
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Re: High-carb, low-glycemic-index diet best for weight loss and CVD risk reduction
Old 09-02-2006, 11:48 PM   #27
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Re: High-carb, low-glycemic-index diet best for weight loss and CVD risk reduction

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Originally Posted by mb
A calorie is a calorie is a calorie although actually it is a kilocalorie if you want to be precise.
To be precise, I thought a calorie was a calorie, and a Calorie (big "C") was a kilocalorie. Not that the food industry probably bothers being precise.

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Re: High-carb, low-glycemic-index diet best for weight loss and CVD risk reduction
Old 09-02-2006, 11:55 PM   #28
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Re: High-carb, low-glycemic-index diet best for weight loss and CVD risk reduction

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Originally Posted by mb
Foods that have a high glycemic index burn quickly and are converted to fat if the energy isn't used and then leave you hungry a short time later.
That's the way you'd want it to work, but is there any evidence it actually works that way?* * I haven't looked at this in depth, but there seems to be evidence that a high glycemic load does a couple of things:

1) In normal people, it inhibits TG clearing

2) In fat people, it increases TG via de novo lipogenesis.* * Basically, if you're fat, high GI foods will make you fatter independent of your immediate energy needs.

Edit:

The big question in my mind is whether or not high GI diets are a cause of metabolic syndrome, obesity, etc. A quick google brought up this study:

Carbohydrate nutrition, insulin resistance, and the prevalence of the metabolic syndrome in the Framingham Offspring Cohort

We examined cross-sectional associations between carbohydrate-related dietary factors, insulin resistance, and the prevalence of the metabolic syndrome in 2,834 subjects

...

intakes of total dietary fiber, cereal fiber, fruit fiber, and whole grains were inversely associated, whereas glycemic index and glycemic load were positively associated with HOMA-IR. The prevalence of the metabolic syndrome was significantly lower among those in the highest quintile of cereal fiber (odds ratio [OR] 0.62; 95% CI 0.45-0.86) and whole-grain (0.67; 0.48-0.91) intakes relative to those in the lowest quintile category after adjustment for confounding lifestyle and dietary factors. Conversely, the prevalence of the metabolic syndrome was significantly higher among individuals in the highest relative to the lowest quintile category of glycemic index...


So, 2834 subjects back up the idea that a high-carb low-GI diet is the way to go.
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Re: High-carb, low-glycemic-index diet best for weight loss and CVD risk reduction
Old 09-03-2006, 02:01 AM   #29
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Re: High-carb, low-glycemic-index diet best for weight loss and CVD risk reduction

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Originally Posted by wab
That's the way you'd want it to work, but is there any evidence it actually works that way?* *
My info on the glycemic index comes from secondary sources, mostly endurance sports related mags and books such as Runner's World.

Joel Friel's book the Triathlete's Training Bible discusses it in chapter 16. I haven't read any of the original research. I pulled out the book and found a list of about 40 references to papers from peer reviewed journals (I think) for that chapter but none of them appeared to be related to the effect of glycemic index on weight loss.

MB
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Re: High-carb, low-glycemic-index diet best for weight loss and CVD risk reduction
Old 09-03-2006, 02:13 AM   #30
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Re: High-carb, low-glycemic-index diet best for weight loss and CVD risk reduction

Actually a "calorie" as discussed in the diet literature is a kilocalorie or kcal.

From:* http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/e...cle/002457.htm

The energy stored in food is measured in terms of calories.

Technically, 1 calorie is the amount of energy required to raise the temperature of 1 gram of water 1 degree Centigrade. The calorie measure used commonly to discuss the energy content of food is actually a kilocalorie or 1000 real calories. This is the amount of energy required to raise 1 kilogram of water (about 2.2 pounds) 1 degree Centigrade.


Don't know why in the world they did this?* Seems to me it is about the most technically confusing thing that you can do?* Maybe because we don't do metric very well in the US?

MB

Edit: bpp, I think you may be right on the big "C" in some places but I just checked a couple of food labels and found some "Calories" and some "calories" (no "Cs") and they are all definitely kcals.

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Re: High-carb, low-glycemic-index diet best for weight loss and CVD risk reduction
Old 09-03-2006, 03:53 AM   #31
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Re: High-carb, low-glycemic-index diet best for weight loss and CVD risk reduction

bottom line to all this technical jargon is what works for you long term.no diet is good if you cant live forever on it and then i wouldnt call it a diet but id just call it an eating plan.

for me any diet that leaves me hungry will fail after more than a month or so. (most of them)
any diet restricticting carbs and leaving me energy less during our cardio routines will fail (aitkins)

any diet high in fat that raises my genetically high triglycerides will fail (aitkins)

any diet that requires to much work,special foods or just seems rediculous will fail (like that susan sommers thing)

lets see whats left?* oooh yeah just eating normally.
basically we have found a normal diet of high carb,low fat ,complete with a sliver of junk food and sweets mixed in to make us happy and not feel deprived does the trick...
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Re: High-carb, low-glycemic-index diet best for weight loss and CVD risk reduction
Old 09-03-2006, 04:00 AM   #32
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Re: High-carb, low-glycemic-index diet best for weight loss and CVD risk reduction

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Originally Posted by wab
This abstract at least feels compelled to give a few facts. I quote:
Quote:
Design: After an overnight fast, 9 subjects with central obesity and insulin resistance but normal triacylglycerolemia randomly ingested 2 test meals with comparable amounts of fat (28–29 g) and digestible carbohydrate (91–94 g) but with different quantities of slowly available glucose (SAG) in cereal products (17 or 2 g SAG/100 g for biscuits and wheat flakes, respectively). Blood samples were collected before and for 6 h after meal intakes.

Results: The postmeal 0–2-h areas under the curve (AUCs) for glycemia and insulinemia were significantly lower (P < 0.05) after the biscuit meal than after the flakes meal. Plasma triacylglycerol concentrations increased significantly after the flakes meal but not after the biscuit meal (1.5-fold higher 0–6-h AUC for the flakes meal). Apolipoprotein B-100 concentrations in the triacylglycerol-rich lipoprotein fraction increased significantly 2 h after the flakes meal but not after the biscuit meal (3-fold higher 0–6-h AUC for the flakes meal). Apolipoprotein B-48 concentrations increased (P < 0.05) 4 h after the flakes meal but not after the biscuit meal (2.3-fold higher 0–6-h AUC for the flakes meal).

Conclusion: Mixed meals containing slowly digestible carbohydrate that induces low glycemic and insulinemic responses reduce the postprandial accumulation of both hepatically and intestinally derived triacylglycerol-rich lipoproteins in obese subjects with insulin resistance.
Assuming that this summary reflects the paper's findings, and in this case I see no reason to doubt that it should, I would restate the conclusions thusly- IF you are going to be eating meals with high amounts of carbohydrate, with respect to postprandial lipid response it is less bad for you choose carbohydrate foods with lower PP glycemic and insulinemic rsponses. This study shows that carbohydrate foods with a relatively greater proportion of SAG (slowly available glucose) have those desirable characteristics when contrasted to carbohydrate foods with similar amounts of digestible carbohydrate but smaller proportions of SAG. This study does not have anything to say about other isocaloric meals with lower amounts of digestible carbohydrates, such as higher fat or higher protein meals.

Ha

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Re: High-carb, low-glycemic-index diet best for weight loss and CVD risk reduction
Old 09-03-2006, 04:03 AM   #33
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Re: High-carb, low-glycemic-index diet best for weight loss and CVD risk reduction

another interesting thing we have found is its okay to binge once in a while too and it has noooo effect at all.

if you think about it a typical thanksgiving dinner can exceed 8,000 calories.since thats about 2-1/2lbs worth of potential weight the next day we should all weigh a few lbs more.the truth is we dont and we dont because it seems that when hit with an enourmous amount of calories unless the body is used to it the body cant deal with so much and just gets rid of the excess.of course if you allow yourself to get used to this amount all bets are off and you will be huge.

hense a popular eating plan in the gym circuits is something called the zig zag plan.for 6 days a week you follow a lower carb diet like south beach *and once a week anything goes.pizza,ice cream ,that mexican fiesta ..its to keep your body in a state of flux and never used to the calories on the pigout day...

we have been doing this for years now and aside from never feeling deprived and eating everything we want we havent gained more than about 2lbs in almost 6 years now..
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Re: High-carb, low-glycemic-index diet best for weight loss and CVD risk reduction
Old 09-03-2006, 11:55 AM   #34
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Re: High-carb, low-glycemic-index diet best for weight loss and CVD risk reduction

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This study does not have anything to say about other isocaloric meals with lower amounts of digestible carbohydrates, such as higher fat or higher protein meals.
Right.* *There are two claims about high-carb low-GI diets: (1) they help reduce body fat, and (2) they help reduce CVD risk.* *The second study I linked to backs up (2), and the third study I linked to backs up (1).

Let me tell you why the high-carb low-GI diets appeals to me:

1) It might explain the beneficial weight loss and low TG effects of low-carb diets like Atkins.

2) (Slow) carbs are an essential macronutrient.

3) High fiber (from slow carbs) have been shown to have lots of benefits (they bind LDL, cleanse the bowel, and might reduce cancer risk).

4) The high availability of high GI processed foods in the US might explain our obesity / metabolic syndrome / diabetes epidemic.
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Re: High-carb, low-glycemic-index diet best for weight loss and CVD risk reduction
Old 09-03-2006, 12:12 PM   #35
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Re: High-carb, low-glycemic-index diet best for weight loss and CVD risk reduction

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4) The high availability of high GI processed foods in the US might explain our obesity / metabolic syndrome / diabetes epidemic.
Blame the obesity on profits in the corn industry.

I'll have a book report in a couple weeks, but "The Omnivore's Dilemma" claims that U.S. agricultural subsidies have produced an uncontrollable avalanche of corn. Growers can't make money and corn processors, mostly ADM & Cargill, have razor-thin margins.

U.S. population only grows about 1%/year so that by itself won't raise consumption enough to pay for executive stock options. The only other choice is to raise consumption by putting corn into everything. Given that motivation, the innovative chemistry of producing HFCS is pretty understandable. Pollan walks through a typical McDonald's meal, of which nearly every item is derived from corn or fattened on corn.

18 months ago we started buying ADRs of Tate & Lyle, the makers of Splenda. It's processed sugar and it's one of the very few artificial sweeteners that stays sweet at high temperatures (for baking). Even they're starting to invest in ethanol plants, and hopefully some of the corn tsunami proves to be more profitable in fuel than in humans. TATYY's stock has gone up 65% since then, and it's not all because the dollar is depreciating against the British pound!
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Re: High-carb, low-glycemic-index diet best for weight loss and CVD risk reduction
Old 09-03-2006, 01:54 PM   #36
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Re: High-carb, low-glycemic-index diet best for weight loss and CVD risk reduction

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Right.* *There are two claims about high-carb low-GI diets: (1) they help reduce body fat, and (2) they help reduce CVD risk.* *The second study I linked to backs up (2), and the third study I linked to backs up (1).

Let me tell you why the high-carb low-GI diets appeals to me:

1) It might explain the beneficial weight loss and low TG effects of low-carb diets like Atkins.

2) (Slow) carbs are an essential macronutrient.

3) High fiber (from slow carbs) have been shown to have lots of benefits (they bind LDL, cleanse the bowel, and might reduce cancer risk).

4) The high availability of high GI processed foods in the US might explain our obesity / metabolic syndrome / diabetes epidemic.
I see you point, but it seems to come from being wedded to eating a large amount of grain based carbohydrate foods- just trying to eat them in their unprocessed, lower glycemic state.

But there are other approaches that probably would satisfy your criteria. Your criteria include some talking points which while they may be true are really not very well supported-e.g. the colon cancer cereal fiber case that appears to be not very well documented.

You really don't have to eat any cereal grains. I haven't in 9 years- no bread, no pasta, no whatever. Also no sugar, no corn syrup, no honey no brownies.

But that doesn't mean a diet very high in animal fat. My (huge) salads are liberally greased with olive oil. I probably keep my greengrocer in business buying broccoli, cauliflower, spinach, collards, carrots onions etc.

There are many vegetables that have <= 5gm of digestible carb per 100gms of food! And this is usually all very low glycemic- too low to have ever had anyone bother testing it. The money for testing mostly comes from processed food vendors. Even if it were not low GI, there is so little of it that it would still represent a low glycemic load.

So I can eat 2 kilos of my veggies and stay below 100 gm of total digestible carb a day. Also, I eat so much soluble fiber that there is no need to think about prune juice that is for sure.

It takes a little while for steamed broccoli to rank up there with mashed potatoes on the “I want it” scale, but I can say that it will happen!

Ha
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Re: High-carb, low-glycemic-index diet best for weight loss and CVD risk reduction
Old 09-03-2006, 02:12 PM   #37
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Re: High-carb, low-glycemic-index diet best for weight loss and CVD risk reduction

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So I can eat 2 kilos of my veggies and stay below 100 gm of total dogestible carb a day. Also, you eat so much soluble fiber that you will stop thinking about prune juice that is for sure.
That seems much more reasonable than something like Atkins, which targets about 30g carb a day. And you're clearly getting the benefits of a high-fiber diet.

So, for you, the only question is whether there's a downside to replacing some low-GI carb with protein. Other than kidney load and muscle glycogen restoration after exercise, I don't know of any.

BTW, what's your beef with whole grains?
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Re: High-carb, low-glycemic-index diet best for weight loss and CVD risk reduction
Old 09-03-2006, 05:20 PM   #38
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Re: High-carb, low-glycemic-index diet best for weight loss and CVD risk reduction

man didnt claw his way to the stop of the food chain to eat grains and carrots* *ha ha ha
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