High cost college (like St John's) vrs FIRE

[Danny]

Private Colleges do cost more than Puiblic. If your kid has the grades and class rank, there can be some good scholarship money to help defray the private cost - for us the private ones were more aggressive in this area.

But a critical factor is how long it takes to get the degree. I think private schools are very good at getting the kid done in 4 years..that's been the case with my three. I hear 6 years at big public schools is not that unusual. So four years at private with hopefully scholarship and grant money vs. maybe 6 or ? years at public with perhaps not so much incentives. The cost difference shrinks, plus I think a small private school that is a good fit for your kid and endeavors to educate the whole person, has a supportive environment provided by the administration and faculty is worth the premium if you can swing it. Not to say public can't do the same, but that wasn't my experience at the state school I went to in Illinois.

 

[bosco]

Well, I'm probably in the minority here, but I'm going to share my philosophy regarding my responsibility to put my kids through college.

I am simply not willing to stay extra years in the saddle to pay for a gold-plated degree that doesn't provide any more return on the investment. I priced out the cost of a 4-year state education. I deducted the money that had been saved in UGMA accounts over the years by banking their Alaska Permanent Fund Dividend cheques. I deducted reasonable savings from summer jobs. I agreed with the ex on a ratio for the two of us to cover the rest. I stuck the money in a bank account and dole it out year by year.

If they want to go somewhere more expensive, then they are on the hook to find funding for it. If they want to go to grad school, funding is usually more available for that, although I might be convinced to "reopen" negotiations at that point.

I want my sons to take the major responsibility in providing their education. I want to be strictly in a supporting role. I think that's a major part of the battle.

 

[5j404]

Bosco - In theory I agree with you. Kids need to be responxible for their education. Parents need to stay in a supporting role.
We worked it out so that the other kids all had final choice their school, their major and where they would live. They had to pay their books and day to day living expenses and a reasonable portion of the tuition /board costs - (We tooked the formular of the amount of weeks the had they had in the summer , 40 hrs Week at X $ Hr. and they had to contribute that too. If they didn't work hard one summer they would need to borrow that.)

In reality this kid may need the different enviroment to soar, and the only way it can happen for her is if we choose help more, even as she works (apply for scholarships, saving, summer jobs, afterschool jobs).

Then again maybe she'll really fit at another school as we continue to look. I guess I wish I hadn't pointed this school out to her

 

[Zoocat]

Trombone Al we've found the same thing- "The problem is that no level of motivation will enable her to get that much dough. No one will lend her that much."
That's why I know a lot of the extra cost will effect how WE GET TO LIVE for the next 5 years If it's a great fit it and she thrives it would be worth the cost but you can't predict how well your kid will do off on there own - and at a net cost of $30,000 more a year (this college gives no scolarships, grants on merit just need based) It's a big gamble. If she makes the most of it awesome if she fumbles ouch .

As a former English major with an advanced degree and a parent of two graduates of private colleges I know a little about this situation. If I were in your situation, I would not send my daughter with writing ambitions to St. John's. It's a college with a very narrow academic program, which is fine and probably wonderful. But a writer needs a wide ranging academic program. Your daughter can read and write just as well in an excellent state university, maybe one with an honors program which has small classes for undergrads. If she wants to work in publishing then the extra money could be used for a Publishing Institute program when she graduates (there are several, such as at the University of Denver), which will help her get a JOB.

I am a huge fan of the small liberal arts college. My son went to Carleton, was able to do research under a professor which allowed him to get a National Science Foundation award as well as excellent recommendations to graduate school. The small college environment has advantages for the undergrad, which the state university can hardly match with its HUGE introductory classes. Many have scholarships for academic achievers. Take a look at first tier colleges farther down the list and those on the second tier. Lots of scholarship money and financial aid. They are excellent!

IMHO, a high school graduate has no idea how important his/her college education will be. They shouldn't be placed in the position of being responsible for making the final decision, neither should they be financially responsible (unless there is no other choice). I put myself through college and graduate school but there was a lot more financial aid available then (circa mid-1970s). Huge college debt is an awful fate to deal with as a new graduate.

That's my take on it. Good luck! It's hard to disappoint your child. My son didn't want to go to Carleton (ugh, those Minnesota winters), but it turned out fantastic for him.

 

[Sam]

Which St. John's is this? NY or MN?

The one in NY is rated 3rd tier among national universities by US News & WR. The one in MN is ranked 69 among Liberal Colleges by the same organization.

 

[Danny]

Which St. John's is this? NY or MN?

The one in NY is rated 3rd tier among national universities by US News & WR. The one in MN is ranked 69 among Liberal Colleges by the same organization.

There maybe as many as 4 that are being talked about here! My youngest son is at St. John's University in Minnesota, daughter went to the sister school College of St. Benedict. CSB/SJU

Just noticed this startling factoid - 81 percent of CSB/SJU students complete their degree; 90 percent of those graduates finish within four years. Nationally, the six-year completion rate is 58 percent of all private college students and 36 percent of public college students.

 

[calmloki]

Which St. John's is this? NY or MN?

The one in NY is rated 3rd tier among national universities by US News & WR. The one in MN is ranked 69 among Liberal Colleges by the same organization.

'Scuse me, but I think Oldbabe's talking about my school, St. John's college:
NOT the basketball dominating school. This one:
St. John's College - soccer, ballroom dancing, croquet, sophistry...

Electives? No electives for you! You don't know what you need - we will give you the curriculum that we deem proper. That St. John's.

 

[Brat]

I agree with OldBabe. You need to find a school that prepares her for the job she thinks she wants, but also has other programs should she change her mind. You really need to consider college as an investment in a career. What will give her/you the best return on the money and time?

My DD went to a Jesuit university in California. She wanted engineering and my analysis was that this school did an excellent job transitioning their graduates into the work world (providing additional value) so we said OK. Like many undergrads she changed majors, in her case to finance. Their School of Finance is very selective and highly regarded.

The education she received was top notch and the relationships developed opened doors to a very successful career. Would she be where she is today if she hadn't attended that school? Unless she had attended Stanford, I don't think so. In this case her tuition was a bargain.

 

[ChrisC]

I'm going back to the OP's original question and sound a different note, having gone through this process three times in the last 7 years. IMHO, there are only a few elite private colleges that are worth paying $40-45K a year if you essentially have to put yourself through financial hardship and stress and jeopardize your own retirement security. My list of those schools consists of the usual, well-known suspects, like, for example, Harvard, Yale, Stanford, Princeton, Cal Tech, and MIT. If your child is fortunate to get into these schools, then he or she most assuredly will likely be able to get into the flagship state university. Except for only one of my kids, none of these elite schools was on their radar screen, and fortunately for us, she got waitlisted and then rejected for one of these schools -- we never had to squarely address this issue. However, when it came down to figuring out whether my two daughters should go to Cornell, Duke, Columbia vs. UVa, it was basically a no-brainer for the entire family, including our two daughters.
We all couldn't see paying close to $320K for 8 years at Duke or Cornell vs.
$24K (with schorlarship money) at UVa for an undergraduate education, especially since both of them wanted advance degrees (and the oldest has already received hers) that are more important to their careers than the undergraduate degree!

There are many great small private colleges -- they offer first rate educations and first rate experiences, but the public universities are exceptional too, at a fraction of the cost. And yeah, everyone talks about being lost in the crowd of a big school and graduate assistants teaching classes, but that has to be balanced against the great resources of the public colleges. I think it's fair to say that in many cases, if the school fits the child, no one can really go wrong with the selection.

 

[Zoocat]

Another point (which I may have already made). The best graduate schools in every field realize that undergrads coming out of good small liberal arts colleges are way more prepared for their grad programs than students coming out of State U.

Also, the honors programs at State U are comparable in quality to the small college and a great bargain!

 

[Brat]

Again, OldBabe, you are spot-on.

 

[Nords]

Which St. John's is this? NY or MN?

Gosh, I thought we were talking about the St. John's in Annapolis.

It never occurred to me that there might be more than one. And I bet it never occurred to them, either!

 

[ChrisC]

Another point (which I may have already made). The best graduate schools in every field realize that undergrads coming out of good small liberal arts colleges are way more prepared for their grad programs than students coming out of State U.

This is really an untested view, right? I doubt this is true for most professional graduate schools, like law schools, business schools, or medical schools, where the specific undergraduate education does not necessarily prepare anyone for advanced professional study. And while St. John's (and perhaps Carelton College) graduates might do well in professional schools, so do graduates from New College of Florida or William & Mary College in Virginia, public colleges with student-faculty ratios of 10-1 or 12-1. And grads from some of the bigger state universities like UVa, UNC, Mich, Berkeley, or UCLA generally fare well in almost all programs. I'm not denigrating the accomplishments of students from small private colleges, but we paint with an exceedingly broad stroke when we say that graduate programs view these graduates better than those from public universities or colleges. And quite simply, there are some programs or studies that are simply not available at the small, elite private colleges like St. John's, where the graduate would have an uphill battle convincing a grad program for admission into a grad program with no antecedent at the small private college.(Maybe a St. John's grad can get into an advanced engineering or physics program at Cal Tech or MIT, but to say that the St. John's student would be better prepared for that grad program through the 100 great books program than a student getting a traditional B.S. in Engineering from Virginia Tech or Penn State is a big stretch.)

We both have biases here about the value of small private colleges and public universities, but I think it's not accurate to say that grads from small private colleges are "way more prepared for their grad programs than students coming out of State U." Certainly, there are cases where Reed, St. John's, or Carleton grads might do better than grads from Berkerley, UNC, or Mich in certain graduate programs -- in many cases, this has nothing to do with the quality of the undergraduate program, but rather the quality of the college graduate who probably would have excelled in any undergraduate program anyway.

 

[calmloki]

.... You need to find a school that prepares her for the job she thinks she wants, but also has other programs should she change her mind. You really need to consider college as an investment in a career. What will give her/you the best return on the money and time?.....

Here's a bit of heresy: While useful, the Great Books program from St. John's college does not aim to ready the student for a specific career. It's difficult to determine what the coursework is equivalent to in a standard college: other schools are given a key to aid in the translation. It's considered poor form to even enquire what your grades are. Still... for some it is a great use of time and money.
Driving a Chevy Sprint for years was efficient and helped as we were collecting properties. Taking sailplane lessons and ridgesoaring in Calistoga, doing a hammerhead stall over Pearblossom, was fantastic and gave me great return on my money and time. Hanging, wings outstretched, hanging in the face of God, for just that instant before falling back toward earth.... Even though the sailplane is a lousy choice for a run to Homer Despot there were moments soaring that i treasure. There was a concentration of moments at St. John's.

 

[Zoocat]

Certainly, there are cases where Reed, St. John's, or Carleton grads might do better than grads from Berkerley, UNC, or Mich in certain graduate programs -- in many cases, this has nothing to do with the quality of the undergraduate program, but rather the quality of the college graduate who probably would have excelled in any undergraduate program anyway.

Of course, the individual case always trumps the generality.

 

[Brat]

As a native of the Reed neighborhood (and at one time recruited by them as a student), the issue is the senior thesis.

Their drop-out, transfer rate, should be scrutinized before enrolling.

 

[cho oyu]

IMHO, there are only a few elite private colleges that are worth paying $40-45K a year if you essentially have to put yourself through financial hardship and stress and jeopardize your own retirement security. My list of those schools consists of the usual, well-known suspects, like, for example, Harvard, Yale, Stanford, Princeton, Cal Tech, and MIT. If your child is fortunate to get into these schools, then he or she most assuredly will likely be able to get into the flagship state university.

There are many great small private colleges -- they offer first rate educations and first rate experiences, but the public universities are exceptional too, at a fraction of the cost. And yeah, everyone talks about being lost in the crowd of a big school and graduate assistants teaching classes, but that has to be balanced against the great resources of the public colleges. I think it's fair to say that in many cases, if the school fits the child, no one can really go wrong with the selection.

I think that it is important to remember that, even within the public university systems, there are both large and (relatively) small schools. I did my undergraduate work at a public university with a combined undergraduate/graduate population of somewhere around 6-7000 students. Only one course during my tenure was taught by a graduate student. This isn't in the realm of some of the smaller liberal arts schools, but it also pales in comparison to UIUC or UCLA (40000+, I think).

I personally do not believe that it is worth paying the exorbitant tuition at even the above select private institutions unless the baccalaureate degree is the terminal degree and it has no impact on parents' retirement.

As a terminal degree, some of the elite colleges do allow for more networking and first choice in interviews upon graduation. However, excelling in one's field at a flagship public institution will allow a student pretty much the same opportunities.

 

[dumpster56]

Private school and money. Well if you need to go into major debt then a state school is the answer. Is she going to go on to graduate school after college? Way back the son was accepted to Cornell and Rutgers. He went to Rutgers had zero debt at graduation, went on to Graduate school Columbia, they Paid him to get his PHD and 5 year 22K stipend in addition to paying his tuition. Lived in NYC had a great time and got that Ivy League graduate degree which he now says is not worth the money if you had to pay for it. He is smart like his dad

 

[Webzter]

Personally, I think it depends on the student more than the school. I went to a local university (hey, I was 15, I had to choose somewhere where I didn't need to drive!) with a student population of just over 7,000. Tuition was about $1,800 a semester the whole time I was there ('93-'98). I paid for it with scholarships, grants and a student job (sometimes it pays to be poor).

While there, I had the chance to pretty much construct my own degree (having the faculty head as your advisor and having the guts to ask for things can do wonders).

9 years later, I've got a 'respectable' salary and you can even find my name on Amazon.

 

[5j404]

Wanted to let you know, we went down and visited the school this week. Not a place I would go (too small, why would I want to read all those books , no class choices) but I'm not my daughter. She loved the campus, the currculium and the student that stopped and chatted with her. We all agree it fits her like a glove (maybe too well,) and if all things were equal (ie cost was the same as a state school ) We would give her the chance to attend. Several things other than cost steer me away. She will definately apply and should have no problem being accepted but odds are she won't be attending, even she is starting to realise a 100,000 dollars is a big debt to end college with. A year from now we'll know what seh has decided. But I really want to thank the board for all the comments on this thread. "How much is too much?" is a question we all ask each other every day from tomatoes in the grocery store, to cars, college tuition and houses. If we could only answer that then we'ld know the answer to how much is enough