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Old 12-05-2008, 01:10 PM   #21
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Feng shui is out, now lava curse removal is in!
After we get rid of the rocks, let's start on the lamps...
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Old 12-05-2008, 01:40 PM   #22
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After we get rid of the rocks, let's start on the lamps...
Why you never sat and zoned out on a lava lamp eating Doritos? Memories..
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Old 12-05-2008, 02:01 PM   #23
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The thing I really like about homeschooling is that (most of the time) the child learns how to learn, not just how to socialize with the rest of the collective and be fed the material for next week's test. They learn how to do for themselves, not just pester the teacher what questions they should study for.

OTOH I know a couple homeschool kids who would've been better off anywhere else. The best that could be said is that they're extremely motivated to strike out on their own, they're very creative, and they shrug off adversity. They know they have to make life work because there's no way they're goin' home again.

Our kid keeps coming home from (public) school getting brainwashed into impossible projects by hyperagressive glory-seeking teachers. "I want to spend spring break replanting Kaho'olawe. I'll have to give up my part-time job and quit taekwondo, I'll have to go to training every Friday afternoon and Saturday morning for the next five months, I'll have to swim off the outrigger canoe with my supplies in a trash bag on my head, we dig the holes with C-4, and they'll work us like dogs on leashes. But I'll be saving the 'aina and it'll look great on my transcript!"

Or "Our Russian foreign-exchange student seems to be having a really good time here. I want to be a foreign-exchange student for my first semester senior year, and then I'll apply for college during my second semester after I get back. It'll look great on my transcript!"

Or "I want to take AP U.S. History next year. It doesn't have anything to do with my goal to attend an engineering college, the teacher is called a "Dementor" by her students-- to her face-- and her class barely has a "C" average because she works them three hours a night and 10 hours a weekend. They're miserable & stressed out, they have no social lives, and they're failing their other classes, but I enjoy learning history and it'll look great on my transcript!" Took us six months to deprogram her from that one and we had to threaten the teacher to accompany us on a little visit with the principal.

And so on... because she's been institutionalized most of her life, it never occurs to our kid that she could wait until she's in college or until she's on a Navy deployment or until she's a civilian on her own and then just go do her own thing. No, she has to do it with the classmates in platoon formation after practicing holding hands & singing Kumbayah for a few months. Can't really hold her at fault-- she's just a product of her environment.

Whenever she kvetches about school a little too much, I offer to let her drop out and attend Dad's Homeschool. Cheers her right up. Or at least she stops complaining...

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Originally Posted by Notmuchlonger View Post
... a lava lamp eating Doritos?
Dude, next time you see a lava lamp doing that, save some of those pharmaceuticals for us!
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Old 12-05-2008, 02:25 PM   #24
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I can easily see both sides of this issue. In theory the idea of "perhaps the parents know better than the state about how to give a good education" is a good one.

But in practical terms, I have come face to face with some issues. Certainly I don't know the entire situation (I'm just making conversation here). I've seen:

1. Pretty much zero interaction with other kids. They are in the house all day. They seem a little starved for attention from outsiders.

2. There's no way she has time for any real schooling. These kids are all over the place. Conversation:

Kid: We're both ADD!
Me: You guys seem OK to me.
Kid: You should see us in the house!

3. They had an assignment of writing a recipe and making it for me. I'm not familiar with how well a fourth grader should spell, but I'm guessing "Put in the ovn for 5 sacins" indicates a problem.

California's low regulation approach to home schooling may be letting them down, and they might be behind the eight ball when they grow up.
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Old 12-05-2008, 02:57 PM   #25
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3. They had an assignment of writing a recipe and making it for me. I'm not familiar with how well a fourth grader should spell, but I'm guessing "Put in the ovn for 5 sacins" indicates a problem.
Nope, that sounds about on par for fourth grade. Here on the right coast, my nephew wrote on his Christmas wish list that he wanted a "Remoken Troll Car". He was in fourth or fifth grade at the time. I gave him a dictionary instead.
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Old 12-05-2008, 03:15 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by Notmuchlonger View Post
Why you never sat and zoned out on a lava lamp eating Doritos? Memories..
That's not a memory. That's a flashback!
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Old 12-05-2008, 03:15 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by Nords View Post
The thing I really like about homeschooling is that (most of the time) the child learns how to learn, not just how to socialize with the rest of the collective and be fed the material for next week's test. They learn how to do for themselves, not just pester the teacher what questions they should study for.

OTOH I know a couple homeschool kids who would've been better off anywhere else. The best that could be said is that they're extremely motivated to strike out on their own, they're very creative, and they shrug off adversity. They know they have to make life work because there's no way they're goin' home again.

Our kid keeps coming home from (public) school getting brainwashed into impossible projects by hyperagressive glory-seeking teachers. "I want to spend spring break replanting Kaho'olawe. I'll have to give up my part-time job and quit taekwondo, I'll have to go to training every Friday afternoon and Saturday morning for the next five months, I'll have to swim off the outrigger canoe with my supplies in a trash bag on my head, we dig the holes with C-4, and they'll work us like dogs on leashes. But I'll be saving the 'aina and it'll look great on my transcript!"

Or "Our Russian foreign-exchange student seems to be having a really good time here. I want to be a foreign-exchange student for my first semester senior year, and then I'll apply for college during my second semester after I get back. It'll look great on my transcript!"

Or "I want to take AP U.S. History next year. It doesn't have anything to do with my goal to attend an engineering college, the teacher is called a "Dementor" by her students-- to her face-- and her class barely has a "C" average because she works them three hours a night and 10 hours a weekend. They're miserable & stressed out, they have no social lives, and they're failing their other classes, but I enjoy learning history and it'll look great on my transcript!" Took us six months to deprogram her from that one and we had to threaten the teacher to accompany us on a little visit with the principal.

And so on... because she's been institutionalized most of her life, it never occurs to our kid that she could wait until she's in college or until she's on a Navy deployment or until she's a civilian on her own and then just go do her own thing. No, she has to do it with the classmates in platoon formation after practicing holding hands & singing Kumbayah for a few months. Can't really hold her at fault-- she's just a product of her environment.

Whenever she kvetches about school a little too much, I offer to let her drop out and attend Dad's Homeschool. Cheers her right up. Or at least she stops complaining...


Dude, next time you see a lava lamp doing that, save some of those pharmaceuticals for us!
Yeah Maybe I should have received some home schooling for my run on sentence don't you think instead of eating Doritos and zoning out.
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Old 12-05-2008, 03:31 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by Nords View Post
Our kid keeps coming home from (public) school getting brainwashed into impossible projects by hyperagressive glory-seeking teachers. "I want to spend spring break replanting Kaho'olawe. ... like dogs on leashes. But I'll be saving the 'aina and it'll look great on my transcript!"
I found Kaho'olawe okay, but Google just got silly with returns when I queried 'aina. Assyrian International News Agency? Aina the progressive metal supergroup (you may own their album, Aina, Days of Rising Doom)?
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Old 12-05-2008, 06:00 PM   #29
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I found Kaho'olawe okay, but Google just got silly with returns when I queried 'aina.
Sorry, Hawaii jargon.

"Ka 'aina" is "the land". The state motto is "Ua mau ke ea o ka 'aina i ka pono" for "The life of the land is perpetuated in righteousness". So schoolkids get a lot of encouragement to "care for the 'aina".
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Old 12-05-2008, 06:33 PM   #30
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I can easily see both sides of this issue. In theory the idea of "perhaps the parents know better than the state about how to give a good education" is a good one.

But in practical terms, I have come face to face with some issues. Certainly I don't know the entire situation (I'm just making conversation here). I've seen:

1. Pretty much zero interaction with other kids. They are in the house all day. They seem a little starved for attention from outsiders.

2. There's no way she has time for any real schooling. These kids are all over the place. Conversation:

Kid: We're both ADD!
Me: You guys seem OK to me.
Kid: You should see us in the house!

3. They had an assignment of writing a recipe and making it for me. I'm not familiar with how well a fourth grader should spell, but I'm guessing "Put in the ovn for 5 sacins" indicates a problem.

California's low regulation approach to home schooling may be letting them down, and they might be behind the eight ball when they grow up.
Even considering your probably quite accurate observations that these kids might not be receiving much of an education in their home school -

I'm thinking that the converse of the idea of:

"perhaps the parents know better than the state about how to give a good education"

is

"perhaps the state knows better than the parents about how to give a good education"

I pick the former as the best default policy (barring demonstrable exceptional circumstances and only then on a case-by-case basis)
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Old 12-05-2008, 07:59 PM   #31
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I was going to pull out quotes on which I wanted to comment, but there were too many in the end. I'll just give a few opinions instead. Please realize that there are many ways to homeschool. All of them are equally valid, and each family has the right to choose what works for them.

We homeschool, in fact we unschool. To many people that may look very lazy because it does mean that we get up when we want and do what we want all day long. Wow, can it be that it resembles ER? Fascinating! The kids have freedom from grade/test slavery and DH has freedom from wage slavery. In fact, voluntary simplicity led to a plan for ER and attachment parenting, then homeschooling, and finally this year, ER. It is all intertwined for us and very complementary. We love freedom around here. With a family comprised of INTJ/ENFP/INFP/INTJs, we value independence, uniqueness, and learning.

My children (8 and 5) learn because they are human, and unless the interest is beaten out of you (memorize, regurgitate, forget, anyone?) learning is what we do. It is fun. I want them to retain that love of learning. I also want them to own their knowledge. They learn what is important to them at the time, their time, and they retain it because it is of value to them. It's their knowledge, not mine or the state. Learning goes on all the time. All day long we talk, read, play, work, write, draw, sew, shop, cook, eat. A valuable education is in all of that.

How to gather information is an important skill, how to think critically about it is is even more important. I think that gets lost in the rush to make sure kids know x, y, z for a test. Also, we all do things at different times, in different ways and have different skills. In the adult world, that's ok and respected, even envied in the case of ER. In school, it's not. We believe children deserve to do things in their own way and own time, even if it means that spelling is not what a particular person thinks it should be. The fact that dd wants to sound out and spell on her own because she enjoys it and is getting something out of it is of far greater value to me than how she'd do on a spelling test.

I was just reading today that even professors at the Harvard School of Education recognize that the public school system is broken. I will not be bound to a system that is broken, that was never created with learning in mind. (See The Underground History of American Education by John Taylor Gatto for information on the latter. The Underground History of American Education - John Taylor Gatto)

As for not getting out of the house, there are certainly quite a few introverts on this list who may fall in that category However, homeschooling has come a long way in the last 20 years. There are many, many groups where people get together for classes, parkdays, museum days, musical performances, etc. Recently our group held a Japan Fest day with costumes, games, food, origami, etc. We do not do classes anymore as my daughter is not interested in them. With two introverts, we get together at parkdays with friends, throw in an occasional field trip, and that's all they want or need. The truth is most homeschool families have too many choices of things to do as is the case in most of our society's fast paced culture. As proponents of simplicity we don't buy into that either.

Ok, that was more than .02. Sorry about that.
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Old 12-06-2008, 12:29 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by TromboneAl View Post
I can easily see both sides of this issue. In theory the idea of "perhaps the parents know better than the state about how to give a good education" is a good one.

But in practical terms, I have come face to face with some issues. Certainly I don't know the entire situation (I'm just making conversation here). I've seen:

1. Pretty much zero interaction with other kids. They are in the house all day. They seem a little starved for attention from outsiders.

2. There's no way she has time for any real schooling. These kids are all over the place. Conversation:

Kid: We're both ADD!
Me: You guys seem OK to me.
Kid: You should see us in the house!

3. They had an assignment of writing a recipe and making it for me. I'm not familiar with how well a fourth grader should spell, but I'm guessing "Put in the ovn for 5 sacins" indicates a problem.

California's low regulation approach to home schooling may be letting them down, and they might be behind the eight ball when they grow up.
TA,

You may be correct that in this case home schooling, with only mom there handling the burden alone, is not working out as well as public school might. OTOH, my DW (39 yrs experience teaching + MS ED) points out that millions of children are inadequately served by our public school systems and would probably benefit from home schooling provided by knowledgeable, dedicated parents with the time, motivation and resources to do so.

We're acquainted with three families engaged in home schooling and are impressed with the results they're achieving. I'm sure there are other home schooling families not doing as well, just as there are children dropping out of our public school systems or graduating unable to functionally read or do basic math.

This is another one of those subjects where attempting to generalize based on a handful of anecdotal examples is foolhardy.
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Old 12-06-2008, 09:48 AM   #33
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I was sure lucky that the public school system worked better when I was a kid. In fourth grade my school gave me free trombone lessons, had an art teacher, a music teacher, and a PE program. I learned the spelling, grammar, and math that enabled me to get great jobs and retire early.
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Old 12-06-2008, 10:32 AM   #34
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C'mon, T-Al, public schools are a commie plot to teach kids about evolution and sex...
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Old 12-06-2008, 11:02 AM   #35
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C'mon, T-Al, public schools are a commie plot to teach kids about evolution and sex...
They weren't then - they were teaching us to duck & cover for the day the commie's fired the missiles.
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Old 12-06-2008, 11:11 AM   #36
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They weren't then - they were teaching us to duck & cover for the day the commie's fired the missiles.
You mean those weren't "tornado drills"...
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Old 12-06-2008, 11:15 AM   #37
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ENFP represents what my experiences with homeschooling families have been like: dedicated, involved and very focused on their children's ability to reason and learn to learn. In our state, the public schools, by and large, really suck. If you can't afford private school, parents (especially fairly religious folk that have lots of kids) often homeschool instead.

I agree that there are some kids that would be doing a lot better in a school setting (like the idea that boys learn and girls cook) but I've never once come across a homeschooling family that gave me any sort of willies. I conducted school tours for about 10 years of our family farm, and I LOVED the (count em 5) homeschooling associations in the Charleston area. These kids were always the best behaved (because Mom or Dad or both were right there with them) and asked articulate and well-reasoned questions that showed they were paying attention. I literally gave tours to thousands of children and the homeschoolers were always my favorites.

I'd personally go crazy at the idea of staying with kids all day, but then again, that's why I didn't have any in the first place.
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Old 12-06-2008, 11:20 AM   #38
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Lots of anecdotal evidence one way or the other. It's likely that motivated parents who homeschool will produce a good outcome. But this isn't entirely unlike school districts full of highly motivated parents.
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Old 12-06-2008, 03:39 PM   #39
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I learned the spelling, grammar, and math that enabled me to get great jobs and retire early.
I'm not sure that there's any correlation among those phenomena... and I don't know how we'd study it, either.
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Old 12-06-2008, 04:23 PM   #40
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I was sure lucky that the public school system worked better when I was a kid. In fourth grade my school gave me free trombone lessons, had an art teacher, a music teacher, and a PE program. I learned the spelling, grammar, and math that enabled me to get great jobs and retire early.

Yeah.....ya were! I attended Chicago Public Schools from K - 12. To give you an idea of what things were like, the high school I attended is where Jim Jacobs, co-writer of "Grease" went, although a few years before me. "Book learnin' " was not very high on our priority list!

I didn't get a chance to learn to play the Trombone in public school. However, I did learn how to roll up a pack of Lucky Strikes in my T shirt sleeve. Many potential employers found that very impressive!

I know my mom would have never taught me that trick, so I really benefited from not being home schooled.
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