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Re: Horrifying
Old 09-01-2005, 10:25 PM   #21
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Re: Horrifying

"W" was busy at the time, taking time out from his 5 WEEK VACATION to talk about how his war is comparable to WW2.
Maybe his reference to WW2 is linked to FDR, he is after all also trying to dismantle Roosevelts great societal net.

I'm sorry, but when you check the box for "Leader Of The Free World" I would assume that job means 24/7/365. Hell, I'm only raising 2 kids and am lucky to get 5 DAYS off a year.

Meanwhile the many thousands of troops (many I'm sure from NOLA) and billions of dollars are away in Iraq, when they could be here, saving lives, property and the economy.

I'm pretty stupid but not stupid enough to blame a natural disaster on a politician. But I sure as hell expect leadership of the commander in chief. More than grabbing a bullhorn for a camera op (ala 9/11).

W cares only for himself, his rich cronies, and the christian right that placed him in power.
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Re: Horrifying
Old 09-01-2005, 10:26 PM   #22
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Re: Horrifying

Bad time for partisan politics, but something went very wrong here and things will get uglier politically as the reality of New Orleans unfolds. (EDIT: I mean I don't see this as a partisan issue and dislike when some 'leaders' try to make it into one, but bashing those in charge is fair game IMHO.)

The following is a blog of some network tech guy who's staying in New Orleans maintaining computer equipment. My first thought was there must be something better to do, but I read a bit and this raw news is very intriguing (and horrifying).

http://www.livejournal.com/users/interdictor/


I made a donation to the A.R.C. relief fund today. It was a tough decision for me as I've spent so much time getting into the position I'm in and I'm not FI yet, but I'm certainly more capable of handling financial setbacks than many--maybe even most--Americans.
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Re: Horrifying
Old 09-01-2005, 10:27 PM   #23
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Re: Horrifying

Quote:
Originally Posted by TromboneAl
I'm not clear on the physical layout of things. *Is it currently possible to drive a normal car to the area of New Orleans where most of the people are, or are the roads totally blocked?

In other disasters around the world, you often see a long river of refugees walking away from the disaster area. * I haven't seen that on the news.
If you are coming from out of town you can drive to the SilverDome. *Problem is, most of the cars that were already in town, *are now aquairiums
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Re: Horrifying
Old 09-01-2005, 10:32 PM   #24
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Re: Horrifying

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigMoneyJim
The following is a blog of some network tech guy who's staying in New Orleans maintaining computer equipment. My first thought was there must be something better to do, but I read a bit and this raw news is very intriguing (and horrifying).

http://www.livejournal.com/users/interdictor/
Does someone read slashdot?
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Re: Horrifying
Old 09-01-2005, 10:35 PM   #25
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Re: Horrifying

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marshac
Does someone read slashdot?
Yup.

Here's another interesting site I found through my earlier link:

http://wiki.nola-intel.org/index.php/Current_events

If you've used Wikipedia, this is the same thing applied to current events in NOLA.
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Re: Horrifying
Old 09-01-2005, 10:41 PM   #26
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Re: Horrifying

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigMoneyJim
I made a donation to the A.R.C. relief fund today. It was a tough decision for me as I've spent so much time getting into the position I'm in and I'm not FI yet, but I'm certainly more capable of handling financial setbacks than many--maybe even most--Americans.
Yep, I did the same on Tuesday. Keep thinking maybe a part of my donation will end up helping out unclemick & his family.

Speaking of donations, saw a blurb on the news tonight that contributions were flowing in to relief agencies at three times the rate they did for the tsunami.

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Re: Horrifying
Old 09-01-2005, 10:41 PM   #27
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Re: Horrifying

I hope it goes beyond partisanship. I see this as a leadership issue, bottom line, W isn't a natural leader.
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Re: Horrifying
Old 09-01-2005, 10:52 PM   #28
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Re: Horrifying

We're talking about people who not only had no financial plan, but also had no life plan. *It's not like there was no warning there was a major storm coming. *Still, they couldn't think of any kind of exit strategy for themselves. *They say businesses that fail to plan, plan to fail. *Well, the same is true for individuals.

I would think even if I were as poor as poor can be, I would at least try hitching a ride, getting together with a few other poor people and stealing a bus, getting on a bike and riding away, or some other creative method of evacuating.

That said, there may still be some people who are disabled or too old to get out. *Those people need government help to get out, and for that I blame poor government planning. *Why the government didn't start offering free transportation out of the danger zone, I don't know.

Bottom line is that you save yourself because you can't assume someone else, or much less, the government is going to save you.
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Re: Horrifying
Old 09-01-2005, 11:13 PM   #29
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Re: Horrifying

Reuters- 'New bankruptcy law a problem for Katrina victims'

http://yahoo.reuters.com/financeQuot...1477842_newsml

Suck.
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Re: Horrifying
Old 09-01-2005, 11:27 PM   #30
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Re: Horrifying

I agree ... I'm disgusted with what we're seeing.* We look like a third world country, and this crap about this disaster being beyond imagination ... not only illogical, but a bald-faced lie.

This is indeed about management, at all levels, by all stripes of politicians and bureaucrats.* There should be some damn hard questions and investigations into this mess ... and, excellent point above ... if this is how we react when we see a major storm coming for days, aimed at a location that has been studied ad infinitum regarding the risks of such an event ... how are we going to react if we are attacked again, but this time on a larger scale?

Besides the age-old lesson of working to avoid poverty ... another lesson in never trusting government.

See http://apnews.myway.com/article/20050901/D8CBNMA88.html for some additional fodder.
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Re: Horrifying
Old 09-02-2005, 12:35 AM   #31
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Re: Horrifying

Here's that show I mentioned -- it's a NOVA episode that aired just last January on PBS. If you click on "watch the segment" and view the excerpt, you'll think the show's creators had a crystal ball. Outlines the whole New Orleans scenario and the reasons whyit happened.


http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/sciencenow/3204/02.html

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Re: Horrifying
Old 09-02-2005, 01:08 AM   #32
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Re: Horrifying

This administration has done so many things wrong for so long: *

(That's 4 rant symbols from someone who you know if very liberal. *If you are a knee-jerk Republican, that should be fair warning that I am about to say things that you do not want to hear. *You may be best advised to go back to your TV and turn up FOX News really loud rather than read this.)

Give aways to the rich when we had nothing to give. *Who pays the bills?

An expensive invasion of Iraq based on lies when we were already in an expensive war against terrorism. *Who pays the bills?

Send our National Guard away to a foriegn country leaving no one here to help in the case of a natural disaster. *Who provides relief support?

Dismantle existing programs to prevent disasters. *Who pays for recovery?

Ignore -- no attack -- the scientific community's warnings about energy shortages, need to conserve, and global warming. *Who pays the price?

We can't pay for the aid that's needed. *We are running the largest deficit in history. *Energy supplies are limited because we are in a holy war with the people who control it. *And we have limited National Guard troops to send in because they are fighting the holy war. *Anyone who didn't see some sort of disaster coming hasn't been paying attention. *But it is horrible to see it happening to these people in our own country. *

I'm angry at the Bush administration, but they couldn't have pulled this off without the support of the angry white male party that thinks "no tax is a good tax". *They benefit from living in the richest country in the history of the world but think they don't have to pay for it. *They supported wars without thinking they had to pay for them. *They supported tax breaks for the rich without cutting spending. *They supported sending our National Guard oversees without a plan to bring them home or an alternative for National disasters.

Now we all pay.
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Re: Horrifying
Old 09-02-2005, 01:21 AM   #33
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Re: Horrifying

A little silly to lay all of this at the feet of the Bush admin, but that is always the response from some ... why don't we first get some straight answers as to why these states were so unprepared before we cravenly use this as another Republican Vs Democrat opportunity ... both parties stink, and Bush has made plenty of mistakes ... as did Clinton. And, oh yes ... since government has failed again, the solution is ... more government. Yea, that will solve all of our problems ...


Just heard the head of FEMA, Michael Brown, opine that their relief efforts in the stricken areas are much better and faster than the relief to the tsunami victims ... well bozo, I sure hope so.* This is supposed to be the friggin' USA, not a third world country ... but you can't tell that by watching the news this evening.* Incredible.
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Re: Horrifying
Old 09-02-2005, 01:47 AM   #34
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Re: Horrifying

I think if we did a post-mortem on this event, we'd find that:

1) You can't reasonably protect a below-sea-level city from a Cat 5 hurricane.

2) A lot of people don't evacuate after a warning because they can't. Estimates are that there are 55,000 disabled people in NOLA. Add to that the number who stick around for other reasons (wolf crying, stupidity, emergency personnel, gamblers, etc), and you get over 250,000 who probably stuck around.

3) It's virtually impossible to feed, heal, and evacuate 250,000 people from an underwater city with limited transportation, communications, utilities, etc.

Bottom-line: natural disasters happen. This won't be the last. Not a damn thing you can do about them except to stop building cities in risky areas.

Is there anybody here who lives in a risk-free locale? I've got a fault line a mile from me, an active volcano 50 miles from me, and my house sits 100 ft back from a cliff that is slowly sloughing-off into the ocean. I can empathize with these risk-takers.
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Re: Horrifying
Old 09-02-2005, 01:57 AM   #35
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Re: Horrifying

Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles
A little silly to lay all of this at the feet of the Bush admin, but that is always the response from some ...
You might think that at first. *Clearly, W didn't create the huricane. *But he had everything to do with our ability to respond to it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles
. . . why don't we first get some straight answers as to why these states were so unprepared . . .
These are two of the poorest States in the Union and this is one of the poorest areas in the country. *While the region of devestation is huge, it represents less than 1% of the GDP. *I would be willing to bet that a disproportionate number of the troops in Iraq are from this area too. *Yeah . . . let's blame the states. *

Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles
. . .before we cravenly use this as another Republican Vs Democrat opportunity ... both parties stink, and Bush has made plenty of mistakes ... as did Clinton.*
I have said nothing in support of Clinton or the Democrats. *Although I don't know what Clinton has to do with this, I don't recall his administration running the largest deficit in history. *In fact, I recall a surplus. *Why are there so many knee-jerk Republicans who keep missing this very important point. *Pay your bills. *You can't keep giving away taxes to the rich and spending money on unjustified wars. * GWB needs to learn how to pay his bills. *Otherwise, we won't have money and resources when we need them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles
And, oh yes ... since government has failed again, the solution is ... more government.* Yea, that will solve all of our problems ...
*Who said more government? *I'm in favor of less brain-dead government. *

What's your solution? *Let industry solve our problems? *They have a great track record of efficiency, honesty and public interest. *


Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles
Just heard the head of FEMA, Michael Brown, opine that their relief efforts in the stricken areas are much better and faster than the relief to the tsunami victims ... well bozo, I sure hope so.* This is supposed to be the friggin' USA, not a third world country ... but you can't tell that by watching the news this evening.* Incredible.
We're out of money. *We're out of oil. *We're out of troops. *W is successfully guiding the US into third world status. *
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Re: Horrifying
Old 09-02-2005, 01:57 AM   #36
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Re: Horrifying

I've been in tornado-prone areas most of my life. Not much warning but a much smaller area affected and these days we generally get a minute or more warning which could very well be enough.

A blog update from the site I posted earlier:

Quote:
Thursday, September 1st, 2005
10:46 pm
The Real News
The following is the result of an interview I just conducted via cell phone with a New Orleans citizen stranded at the Convention Center. I don't know what you're hearing in the mainstream media or in the press conferences from the city and state officials, but here is the truth:

"Bigfoot" is a bar manager and DJ on Bourbon Street, and is a local personality and icon in the city. He is a lifelong resident of the city, born and raised. He rode out the storm itself in the Iberville Projects because he knew he would be above any flood waters. Here is his story as told to me moments ago. I took notes while he talked and then I asked some questions:

Quote:
Three days ago, police and national guard troops told citizens to head toward the Crescent City Connection Bridge to await transportation out of the area. The citizens trekked over to the Convention Center and waited for the buses which they were told would take them to Houston or Alabama or somewhere else, out of this area.

It's been 3 days, and the buses have yet to appear.

Although obviously he has no exact count, he estimates more than 10,000 people are packed into and around and outside the convention center still waiting for the buses. They had no food, no water, and no medicine for the last three days, until today, when the National Guard drove over the bridge above them, and tossed out supplies over the side crashing down to the ground below. Much of the supplies were destroyed from the drop. Many people tried to catch the supplies to protect them before they hit the ground. Some offered to walk all the way around up the bridge and bring the supplies down, but any attempt to approach the police or national guard resulted in weapons being aimed at them.

There are many infants and elderly people among them, as well as many people who were injured jumping out of windows to escape flood water and the like -- all of them in dire straights.

Any attempt to flag down police results in being told to get away at gunpoint. Hour after hour they watch buses pass by filled with people from other areas. Tensions are very high, and there has been at least one murder and several fights. 8 or 9 dead people have been stored in a freezer in the area, and 2 of these dead people are kids.

The people are so desperate that they're doing anything they can think of to impress the authorities enough to bring some buses. These things include standing in single file lines with the eldery in front, women and children next; sweeping up the area and cleaning the windows and anything else that would show the people are not barbarians.

The buses never stop.

Before the supplies were pitched off the bridge today, people had to break into buildings in the area to try to find food and water for their families. There was not enough. This spurred many families to break into cars to try to escape the city. There was no police response to the auto thefts until the mob reached the rich area -- Saulet Condos -- once they tried to get cars from there... well then the whole swat teams began showing up with rifles pointed. Snipers got on the roof and told people to get back.

He reports that the conditions are horrendous. Heat, mosquitoes and utter misery. The smell, he says, is "horrific."

He says it's the slowest mandatory evacuation ever, and he wants to know why they were told to go to the Convention Center area in the first place; furthermore, he reports that many of them with cell phones have contacts willing to come rescue them, but people are not being allowed through to pick them up.


I have "Bigfoot"'s phone number and will gladly give it to any city or state official who would like to tell him how everything is under control.

Addendum: Bigfoot just called to report that "they" (the authorities) are cleaning up the dead bodies at the Convention Center right now.
I know disasters happen and loss of life was practially unavoidable, but something is wrong when 4.5 days after the hurricane the area is still in anarchy. Sitting here in the midwest with the price of gas being my biggest complaint I don't know where things went wrong, but something should have been done better to get more people out (EDIT: after the flooding), prevent rapes and support large refugee camps.

EDIT: Source URL: http://www.livejournal.com/users/interdictor/42309.html

EDIT: An amusing comment by "jenny_r " in the feedback section: "You know, we should have gotten the Israeli prime-minster to organize this evacuation. Everybody would have been out by Tuesday."
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Re: Horrifying
Old 09-02-2005, 02:07 AM   #37
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Re: Horrifying

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigMoneyJim
I know disasters happen and loss of life was practially unavoidable, but something is wrong when 4.5 days after the hurricane the area is still in anarchy. Sitting here in the midwest with the price of gas being my biggest complaint I don't know where things went wrong, but something should have been done better to get more people out (EDIT: after the flooding), prevent rapes and support large refugee camps.
I really don't know what the numbers are at this point, but let's go with the estimate of 250,000 people who remained in the city. I think we've deployed about 150,000 troups in Iraq. If we pulled them all back here, and they each saved two people, NOLA would be in good shape. Can you imagine redploying the entire armed forces in a 4-day period? This disaster is simply too big. In the end, we will hear thousands of hellish stories.
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Re: Horrifying
Old 09-02-2005, 02:11 AM   #38
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Re: Horrifying

Quote:
Originally Posted by wabmester
I really don't know what the numbers are at this point, but let's go with the estimate of 250,000 people who remained in the city. I think we've deployed about 150,000 troups in Iraq. If we pulled them all back here, and they each saved two people, NOLA would be in good shape. Can you imagine redploying the entire armed forces in a 4-day period? This disaster is simply too big. In the end, we will hear thousands of hellish stories.
I'm thinking more along the lines of 20-bus convoys with armed escorts to get the refugee camp people out of NOLA to a place with fresh water, sanitation, medicine, climate control and lack of rotting corpses lying about. Much better than a 2:1 life saved ratio I think. I'm also thinking they could've conquered the anarchy by now so those who have working transportation aren't in fear of their lives to use it.

I'm not going to nit-pick helicoptering people off rooftops at the moment; I'm heartbroken at tens of thousands of congregated, sheltered people in danger of dying from filth and anarchy.
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Re: Horrifying
Old 09-02-2005, 06:54 AM   #39
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Re: Horrifying

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Originally Posted by nuisance
I say get him out there. When he sees with his own eyes how miserable people are, perhaps he gets to thinking about those choppers etc that are always the background to his speeches.
Plus, maybe someone will ge lucky and shoot down the right chopper this time...

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Re: Horrifying
Old 09-02-2005, 07:03 AM   #40
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Re: Horrifying

Gee, CNN's Dr. Sanjay Gupta made it into New Orleans Charity Hospital this morning (it's 5am PST). Why can't the National Guard make it in This is f%^king outrage! Bush would rather protect the oil in Iraq then help the hurricane ravaged people in this country.

Now there are explosions happenning in New Orleans. CNN is saying there's a chemical fire.
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