Horrifying

[sgeeeee]

Quote:

Originally Posted by REWahoo! And just how far down the list would you like to go? Presidential Succession 1.* *Vice-President (Cheney) 2.* *Speaker of the House (Hastert) 3.* *President Pro Tempore of the Senate (Stevens) 4.* *Secretary of State (Rice) 5.* *Secretary of the Treasury (Snow) 6.* *Secretary of Defense (Rumsfeld) Wait, let me guess.* Just far enough for the addict to score some snow... REW PS* * I bought a ticket from the Red Cross on Tuesday.

I hate to come out in favor of drug addiction, but this country clearly needs more jonesing crack addicts. *

PS *I'm not even sure what a "jonesing crack addict" is, but if that's our best line of defense against the list of elitist cretins above, I'm in favor of more of them.

and although it's nobody's business, I'm carrying a fistfull of tickets -- paid for in time and dollars. *I'm using only a small portion of them to pay for these rants. *

[riskadverse]

Interactive Investor - Aug 31 7:44 AM
WASHINGTON (AFX) -- The economic impact of Hurricane Katrina is likely to be modest as long as damage to the energy infrastructure is temporary, said top White House economic adviser Ben Bernanke in an interview with CNBC business network on Wednesday.

I think we know what Ben thinks is important. He is was the leading candidate for Fed Chairman to replace Greenspan.

[nfs]

Well worth reading.

[moghopper]

Quote:

Originally Posted by nfs Well worth reading.

"Gentlemen, let's get this straight. The police are not there to cause disorder, they're there to maintain disorder." - Mayor Richard J. Daley (1968)

[greg]

rove-bush and the Machiavellian Machine

Here comes the really fetid, corruptive rot/spin: I’ve watched our president for these past few years and believe I have discovered one of his most effective teflon methodologies. I watched it on the campaign trail, and I have seen him use it to effect horrible change in our social consciousness and subsequently our behaviors--and destroy lives--and not just in Iraq.

W usually starts out his plan and spin by attempting to appeal to common sense and his apparently obvious and practical intelligence. “If you don’t need gas, don’t buy it.” Think about this. How can anyone argue with such a statement? And it is so easy to do—for everyone. It sounds good. It sounds practical. It sounds soothing in a time of crisis. It sounds like anyone can do it and help the cause. What a good thing. What an optimistic and wise fellow leading the effort to fix a disaster.

He continues with his cheery, obvious, and wise homilies: “This is a terrible disaster.” and “This is not acceptable.” And I’m working on it right now.” He starts the process of both distancing himself and actively showing everybody on TV how hard he is w/porking. (Even though behind the scenes everyone knows he is ultimately at fault.) He is setting up the trap.

He sucks people into the Machiavellian machine. Through his early words and behaviors, he displays his optimism, his positive attitude, his practical, common sense wisdom—a simple, straightforward man of the folks. How can any true, patriotic American not believe him, not gather around him in a time of crisis. A real leader.

But when people start pointing out his errors, the set-up is already in place. He has begun distancing himself from the administrative arm of gov’t (This is not acceptable) he set up in the first place to deal with the problem. No apologies or admission of failure from W ever—that would be non-Machiavellian. He lets people confer responsibility on their own. He is too busy leading. Plus, he has selected ”personal loyalty” as the prime characteristic in determining the selection of these leaders, e.g. head of the Corp. of Engineers, FEMA, etc. (He selected personal and party loyalty over competent administrative skills or knowledge of the work that needed doing) So they won’t admit any responsibility. Besides, these bureau leaders are now too busy—fixing their own mistakes. The sick machine holds together.

So when the media and opposition party come forward to criticize, they are branded un-American trouble makers. W has sucked people into his ‘us’ machine of good, practical, hard working, optimistic, common sense sorts--and after this--everyone else must be ‘them.’ The damage has been done. The divide is created. All that follows is adjustments in the spin to maintain and perpetuate the divide and avoid responsibility.

I’ve watched this process too many times. Who wouldn’t want to stop WMD and nuclear bombs, especially if they were aimed at us? It would be un-American. When this was proven false, the switch was made to getting terrorists. When it actually created more terrorists, the switch was made to stabilizing the Middle East. When that situation got even worse, less stable, the target was moved full circle, a full 360 degree cycle of spin: ‘We need to stay in Iraq to honor our dead soldiers.’ W, you sent them there in the first place; now we’re supposed to stay because you lied or were stupid about sending them in the first place--and they died?

Watch the spin. Then stop the Machine.

--Greg

Just to be fair, the Democrats are a bunch of spineless weasels except, perhaps, Howard Dean. I also think we now need to stabilize Iraq before leaving. What a Bush legacy, what a mess—again.

[BigMoneyJim]

Quote:

Originally Posted by maddythebeagle On the issue of NOLA, do you think that it would have been any different in any of other of the poor inner cities? Even without a natural disaster, there is lawlessness?

Me? A disturbingly (to me) large minoirty (I hope) of people will take advantage of a lack of law enforcement or similar deterrent. I think any other city without any public services for 3-5 days *and* lacking personal/informal/renegade 'law' enforcement would degrade into the same situation.

In New Orleans, most of those with property to protect had the means to flee and aren't enforcing any measure of control around their properties. The local enforcement was rendered impotent enough to be unable to counter the outlaws. Not enough outside law enforcement was sent in to fill the gaps. Then people were stuck for over 48 hours without basic things like fresh water, sanitation or food. 24-48 hours in my mind is the sanity limit for those conditions. I fear after that I'd become rather animalistic about water and food.

It's difficult for me to imagine this situation happening to other places. What besides a flood like this would prevent both escape and hinder relief so effectively? Yet still let or force masses of people to congregate? (Think rats in a cage.)

But if there were a lack of property protecters and law enforcement then yes I think other cities would suffer the same fate.

-----

nfs: I agree with his analysis of the problem, but I don't believe privatizing everything is the answer. The commercial and industrial sectors are already well protected through preparations and insurance. The problem here was mostly the poor and I have no confidence that privatizing public projects (real ones not pork) would improve their plight.

-----

Mr. Martha: Yes, Bush's strength is managing PR, not managing real situations. It's tempting to compare NOLA to 9-11 but on 9-11 there was still ample electricity, food, water and all public services within a block or two of any part of the affected area. Not so in NOLA. The local officials were still in place and in power and had the resources they needed; NOLA was wiped out and requireds outside relief.* I don't lay the blame of all of this squarely on his feet, but I think he's going to pay a big politicaly price for Katrina's relief efforts.

[REWahoo]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Apocalypse . . .um . . .SOON rove-bush and the Machiavellian Machine

Greg, Greg, Greg, Greg, Greg, Greg, Greg.....

Chill out pardner. You gonna blow a gasket over the machination of a bunch of politicians? Fughettaboudit. Not worth gettin' your panties in a wad over all the spin doctorin' goin' on round this mess. Don't matter who's in office, they all blame "dem udder folks" for anythin' that goes wrong. Meanwhile, us'uns gets penetrated by a small cylindrical rod incised with one or more helical or advancing spiral threads.

That's our constitutional right (or left).

REW

[Eagle43]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Apocalypse . . .um . . .SOON rove-bush and the Machiavellian Machine Here comes the really fetid, corruptive rot/spin: I’ve watched our president for these past few years and believe I have discovered one of his most effective teflon methodologies. I watched it on the campaign trail, and I have seen him use it to effect horrible change in our social consciousness and subsequently our behaviors--and destroy lives--and not just in Iraq. W usually starts out his plan and spin by attempting to appeal to common sense and his apparently obvious and practical intelligence. “If you don’t need gas, don’t buy it.” Think about this. How can anyone argue with such a statement? And it is so easy to do—for everyone. It sounds good. It sounds practical. It sounds soothing in a time of crisis. It sounds like anyone can do it and help the cause. What a good thing. What an optimistic and wise fellow leading the effort to fix a disaster. He continues with his cheery, obvious, and wise homilies: “This is a terrible disaster.” and “This is not acceptable.” And I’m working on it right now.” He starts the process of both distancing himself and actively showing everybody on TV how hard he is w/porking. (Even though behind the scenes everyone knows he is ultimately at fault.) He is setting up the trap. He sucks people into the Machiavellian machine. Through his early words and behaviors, he displays his optimism, his positive attitude, his practical, common sense wisdom—a simple, straightforward man of the folks. How can any true, patriotic American not believe him, not gather around him in a time of crisis. A real leader. But when people start pointing out his errors, the set-up is already in place. He has begun distancing himself from the administrative arm of gov’t (This is not acceptable) he set up in the first place to deal with the problem. No apologies or admission of failure from W ever—that would be non-Machiavellian. He lets people confer responsibility on their own. He is too busy leading. Plus, he has selected ”personal loyalty” as the prime characteristic in determining the selection of these leaders, e.g. head of the Corp. of Engineers, FEMA, etc. (He selected personal and party loyalty over competent administrative skills or knowledge of the work that needed doing) So they won’t admit any responsibility. Besides, these bureau leaders are now too busy—fixing their own mistakes. The sick machine holds together. So when the media and opposition party come forward to criticize, they are branded un-American trouble makers. W has sucked people into his ‘us’ machine of good, practical, hard working, optimistic, common sense sorts--and after this--everyone else must be ‘them.’ The damage has been done. The divide is created. All that follows is adjustments in the spin to maintain and perpetuate the divide and avoid responsibility. I’ve watched this process too many times. Who wouldn’t want to stop WMD and nuclear bombs, especially if they were aimed at us? It would be un-American. When this was proven false, the switch was made to getting terrorists. When it actually created more terrorists, the switch was made to stabilizing the Middle East. When that situation got even worse, less stable, the target was moved full circle, a full 360 degree cycle of spin: ‘We need to stay in Iraq to honor our dead soldiers.’ W, you sent them there in the first place; now we’re supposed to stay because you lied or were stupid about sending them in the first place--and they died? Watch the spin. Then stop the Machine. --Greg Just to be fair, the Democrats are a bunch of spineless weasels except, perhaps, Howard Dean. I also think we now need to stabilize Iraq before leaving. What a Bush legacy, what a mess—again.

What utter nonsense. If Bush was this good, his name would be Bill Clinton. He might "feel our pain." If GWB was as good as Bill, he could walk out of Ron Brown's funeral laughing and joking with someone, spot a camera, and start crying on the spot. Gawd, Greg, I wish GWB was this good. If he was, he'd have won most of the states during the election. Oops, he did, didn't he?

[Marshac]

Quote:

Originally Posted by REWahoo! Meanwhile,* us'uns gets penetrated by a small cylindrical rod incised with one or more helical or advancing spiral threads.*

It took me a second to figure out what you meant there.... excellent!

I think it's fair to look at the administration and federal agencies and say 'they dropped the ball big time' without it being political. It's also possible to be outraged at the situation without it being political. It only becomes political when the situation is used to illustrate ones own biases. I propose that we wrap up the political aspect of this thread for awhile so that everyone can chill out... we don't want to lose any more members as a result of religion or politics * So feel free to perform an analysis of the evolving situation, and post your thoughts, but leave the partisanship at the door *Friends everyone? *

[JPatrick]

I agree Marshac, actually I think you are totally screwed up, but you supported me so I'll go along with you
Best now to wait for the investigation before we pass final judgement.* Properly done, I think it will be quite interesting. When all is said and done the buck will stop at W's door, but I think we will see that the buck was dropped in so many ways far below his level.
Meanwhile, let's enjoy all the Hollywood concerts and fundraisers.. Be sure to watch for the buses full of kids pulling into Neverland.
Of course what I really want to see is the ceremony where they hand out the million dollar victim checks especially the ones to the thugs, robbers, and rapists.
Should be some great TV.. A nice gap filler til the NFL gets going and my Dallas Cowboys wipe up the ground with whomever* your no account team may be.* So let's all try to get along

[sgeeeee]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marshac . . .So feel free to perform an analysis of the evolving situation, and post your thoughts, but leave the partisanship at the door *Friends everyone? *

What is partisanship? *Is it the recognition that the ruling Party has left us nearly bankrupt and stretched too thin to respond to our own emergencies? *I see what you mean. *We wouldn't want to mention this fact. *It might make them feel uncomfortable or angry. *Heaven forbid our conversation would make people think about the consequences of the politics they have endorsed. *

No, let's just talk about generalities. *

Sure would be nice if we had more FEMA funds like we did before that agency's budget got raped to create Homeland Security. *I wonder how that happened? *Who would have orchestrated that?

Sure would be nice if we had about 150,000 more National Guard ready to help instead of off in another country. *How in the world did that happen? *I can't imagine who supported that kind of move?

Sure would be nice if we had not created the world's largest budget deficit and could have actually spent money on that flood control project near New Orleans. *We didn't seem to mind spending more money than we had in lots of other areas. *I don't suppose the political party of the govenors of those states affected decisions to cut those funds.

Sure would be nice if our pResident had been able to spend a little time coordinating an emergency relief plan in the several days prior to the hurricane rather than have to spend all his time on vacation and traveling to California to get a guitar from a Country Western star. *Why do these things have to happen during vacation time?

You're not playing nice, SG.* After the levees breached, he did not fly out to California merely to accept a guitar from a country western star.* He actually went to deliver a major speech, comparing himself to FDR.

Be fair.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ((^+^)) SG Sure would be nice if our pResident had been able to spend a little time coordinating an emergency relief plan in the several days prior to the hurricane rather than have to spend all his time on vacation and traveling to California to get a guitar from a Country Western star.

[Marshac]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ((^+^)) SG What is partisanship?

It's when you make the transition from cold facts to 'I think that...' and 'I feel that...'

[Marshac]

Quote:

Originally Posted by tozz You're not playing nice, SG.* After the levees breached, he did not fly out to California merely to accept a guitar from a country western star.* He actually went to deliver a major speech, comparing himself to FDR.

Hey, music sales have been down, probably country music too! It's economic stimulus at its finest As for the comparison to FDR.... it's the whole business about FDR's 3 terms that he likes the most.

[REWahoo]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Laurence On a sunnier side, I think Texas can be pretty proud of it's response, unfortunately, the Astrodome has filled up: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9167426/ But they're now sending people to the Texan's stadium, and more to Dallas. I think NO citizens will not soon forget Houston and Texas.

I've heard that somewhere between 10-25,000 are here or on their way (San Antonio). I tried to contact the United Way 211 volunteer line today to see if there was something I could do to help and could never get through. Found out on the news that so many people were calling to offer help it crashed their phone system.

Sometimes a bad thing is really a good thing...

REW

[Marshac]

How many people can a cruise ship hold? FEMA should rent some of those caribbean cruise ships (some of them larger than aircraft carriers!) and load people up

[REWahoo]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marshac How many people can a cruise ship hold? FEMA should rent some of those caribbean cruise ships (some of them larger than aircraft carriers!) and load people up

I saw something on the news yesterday that FEMA is talking with the cruise lines about this. One (Carnival?) issued a press release about the complexities of this option but said it was open to di$$cu$$ion.

REW

[JPatrick]

Quote:

Originally Posted by REWahoo! I've heard that somewhere between 10-25,000 are here or on their way (San Antonio).* I tried to contact the United Way 211 volunteer line today to see if there was something I could do to help and could never get through.* Found out on the news that so many people were calling to offer help it crashed their phone system.* Sometimes a bad thing is really a good thing... REW

Try 224-5151--in SA. I'm holding with their medical folks right now. *Son's med school sent them home for the holiday with orders to volunteer. Attempting to get him lined up so he can jump right in when he gets here.

[REWahoo]

Quote:

Originally Posted by JPatrick Try 224-5151--in SA.

Thanks.

Just curious. Has all the activity along the Gulf caused you to re-think your plans to relocate to the "Redneck Riviera"?

REW

[JPatrick]

Quote:

Originally Posted by REWahoo! Thanks. Just curious.* Has all the activity along the Gulf caused you to re-think your plans to relocate to the "Redneck Riviera"? REW

Yup--wimped out.* Besides the hurricane issue which is forecast to be in this pattern for decades, home prices have soared to irrational heights.

Made several trips to the Lakes area near Branson MO and are pretty happy with what we saw there.