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Re: Horrifying
Old 09-04-2005, 12:29 PM   #161
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Re: Horrifying

Quote:
Originally Posted by HaHa
One big diffrerence is that in Holland, everybody is in the same bowl together. And of course the native Dutch who created a country out of the seabed are obviously a cut above the ordinary.

Ha
"... On the Herengracht, those returns(real estate) have often been fantastic for 25 or even 50 years at a time. Home prices soared in the first half of the 17th century, around the time of the tulip mania. But they came crashing down in the 1670's, when the prime minister was killed, and partially eaten, by a mob of angry Dutch, and the country nearly disintegrated.

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Re: Horrifying
Old 09-04-2005, 12:37 PM   #162
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Re: Horrifying

Quote:
Originally Posted by Caroline
I'm sympathetic to your view, TromboneAl, but I also remember visiting The Netherlands earlier this year. *That country is over 50% below sea level AND is one of the most crowded nations on earth.

No, they don't get hurricanes, but they DO live right next to the North Sea, whose storms are the stuff of legend.

The difference between their successful system and that of New Orleans may well be a matter of national will.
Holland, 1953:


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Re: Horrifying
Old 09-04-2005, 01:44 PM   #163
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Re: Horrifying

Quote:
Originally Posted by wabmester
Holland, 1953:
The article is pretty good, too.

http://www.thehollandring.com/1953-ramp.shtml

Quote:
...killed 1,835 people. Almost 200,000 hectares of land was swamped, 3,000 homes and 300 farms destroyed...
200,000 hectares is almost 500,000 acres or ~ 770 square miles.* wow.

(by comparison, NOLA has a land area of 181 sq miles)
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Re: Horrifying
Old 09-04-2005, 03:14 PM   #164
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Re: Horrifying

FEMA's head, Mr. Michael Brown, who served for 11 years as lawyer for the International Arabian Horse Association was fired from that post in 2001. His Oklahoma college roommate, Joe Allbaugh, and former FEMA head gave Mr. Brown a job as general counsel to the disaster agency.

http://business.bostonherald.com/bus...ticleid=100857

Shortly thereafter, Mr. Allbaugh, left his post to assist the Bush re-election campaign in 2003. Mr. Bush, then appointed Mr. Brown as the first Under-Secretary for Emergency, Preparedness, and Response within the Dept. of Homeland Security.

After the Katrina crisis, Mr. Brown with all his emergency response experience, said that those who chose not to heed warnings to evacuate before Hurricane Katrina bear some responsibility for their fates. He also agreed with other public officials that the death toll in the city could reach into the thousands. "Unfortunately, that's going to be attributable a lot to people who did not heed the advance warnings," Brown told CNN.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WEATHER/09/0...na.fema.brown/

As long as the Administration is assigning blame for the inevitable body count that will rise into the thousands, does anyone still think that it's no time to assign blame? Or that Bush is not culpable in this catastrophe and that this administration is about as incompetent as they come?

What became of Mr. Allbaugh...? Following his support of the Bush campaign, Mr. Allbaugh - a close advisor to Bush since his Texas days, began a "consulting" company on Iraq. Most recently, he and his wife acquired Kellog, Brown and Root (KBR) as one of its major clients. Who is KBR? Why, it's owned by Halliburton of course.

Does anyone not think this administration is both evil and corrupt? Does anyone know if jonesing crack addicts give volume discounts?
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Re: Horrifying
Old 09-04-2005, 03:19 PM   #165
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Re: Horrifying

Quote:
Originally Posted by 01132008
FEMA's head, Mr. Michael Brown, who served for 11 years as lawyer for the International Arabian Horse Association was fired from that post in 2001.* His Oklahoma college roommate, Joe Allbaugh, and former FEMA head gave Mr. Brown a job as general counsel to the disaster agency.
So are you saying a background in horses doesn't qualify you to be the director of FEMA?
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Re: Horrifying
Old 09-04-2005, 04:14 PM   #166
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Re: Horrifying

Quote:
Originally Posted by 01132008
FEMA's head, Mr. Michael Brown, who served for 11 years as lawyer for the International Arabian Horse Association was fired from that post in 2001.* His Oklahoma college roommate, Joe Allbaugh, and former FEMA head gave Mr. Brown a job as general counsel to the disaster agency.

http://business.bostonherald.com/bus...ticleid=100857

Shortly thereafter, Mr. Allbaugh, left his post to assist the Bush re-election campaign in 2003. Mr. Bush, then appointed Mr. Brown as the first Under-Secretary for Emergency, Preparedness, and Response within the Dept. of Homeland Security.

After the Katrina crisis, Mr. Brown with all his emergency response experience, said that those who chose not to heed warnings to evacuate before Hurricane Katrina bear some responsibility for their fates. He also agreed with other public officials that the death toll in the city could reach into the thousands. "Unfortunately, that's going to be attributable a lot to people who did not heed the advance warnings," Brown told CNN.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WEATHER/09/0...na.fema.brown/

As long as the Administration is assigning blame for the inevitable body count that will rise into the thousands, does anyone still think that it's no time to assign blame? Or that Bush is not culpable in this catastrophe and that this administration is about as incompetent as they come?

What became of Mr. Allbaugh...? Following his support of the Bush campaign, Mr. Allbaugh - a close advisor to Bush since his Texas days, began a "consulting" company on Iraq. Most recently, he and his wife acquired Kellog, Brown and Root (KBR) as one of its major clients. Who is KBR? Why, it's owned by Halliburton of course.

Does anyone not think this administration is both evil and corrupt? Does anyone know if jonesing crack addicts give volume discounts?
Bush, Halliburton, FEMA............it's all BS. Look folks, this is all business
as usual. It's not a commie plot. It's not a Republican plot. Hell, it's
not even a plot. It's Murphy's Law, The Peter Principle, and Al Pacino's
"You can get killed walkin' your doggie!" All of the people listed by this
poster are just doing what they do. A Democrat administration
(or a more liberal one if you prefer) would give you the same results.
Anyone who thinks otherwise is either very young or very dumb, or both.

JG
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Re: Horrifying
Old 09-04-2005, 05:07 PM   #167
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Re: Horrifying

Quote:
Originally Posted by JPatrick
So are you saying a backend of aground in horses doesn't qualify you to be the director of FEMA?
Politician...horse's ass...politician...horse's ass...
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Re: Horrifying
Old 09-04-2005, 05:20 PM   #168
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Re: Horrifying

Quote:
Originally Posted by 01132008
. . .
Does anyone not think this administration is both evil and corrupt? Does anyone know if jonesing crack addicts give volume discounts?
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Re: Horrifying
Old 09-04-2005, 05:28 PM   #169
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Re: Horrifying

Quote:
Originally Posted by MRGALT2U
Bush, Halliburton, FEMA............it's all BS.* Look folks, this is all business
as usual.* It's not a commie plot.* It's not a Republican plot.* Hell, it's
not even a plot.* It's Murphy's Law, The Peter Principle, and Al Pacino's
"You can get killed walkin' your doggie!"* All of the people listed by this
poster are just doing what they do.* A Democrat administration
(or a more liberal one if you prefer) would give you the same results.

Anyone who thinks otherwise is either very young or very dumb, or both.

JG
If it all produces the same result, why do you always support the Republicans?

John, your statements are becoming so simple minded I'm beginning to worry about you. There are big differences between say . . . Carter or Clinton and either Bush or Reagan. There surely are similarities too. But the differences are very significant and you've said so yourself many times. W bungled this. Do you really believe any of the others on that list is likely to have done as poorly?

I'll take my answers offline.
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Re: Horrifying
Old 09-04-2005, 05:35 PM   #170
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Re: Horrifying

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Originally Posted by ((^+^)) SG
If it all produces the same result, why do you always support the Republicans?

John,* your statements are becoming so simple minded I'm beginning to worry about you.* There are big differences between say . . . Carter or Clinton and either Bush or Reagan.* There surely are similarities too.* But the differences are very significant and you've said so yourself many times.* W bungled this.* Do you really believe any of the others on that list is likely to have done as poorly?

I'll take my answers offline.* *
Say........that's a good post (except for the "simple minded" part) .
Yes, I do believe that all politicians are equally inept and
not worthy of trust. I have no respect for any political party
(which is why I do not vote). Now, to answer your question about
"always supporting Republicans", it's simple. They at least have a chance
of gaining power and they are a lot closer to my positions on issues
I care about. Really, in spite of my contempt it's a no-brainer to
support them. Clear now?

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Re: Horrifying
Old 09-04-2005, 07:34 PM   #171
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Re: Horrifying

I agree with John ... can't trust any of them.

Yes, Bill and Jimmy were great ... I remember Bill's wise, compassionate handling of the Branch Davidians, and Jimmy was a real standout when it came to dealing with Iran.
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Re: Horrifying
Old 09-05-2005, 12:15 AM   #172
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Re: Horrifying

I don't know if it's been pointed out yet, but the head of the American Red Cross, Marty Evans, is a retired rear admiral. Her previous experience with disaster planning was running the Girl Scouts USA.

Quote:
Originally Posted by grumpy
Why weren't those military ships following the storm into the gulf toward N.O. instead of waiting to get under way for several days after the storm and then taking several days to sail there?
Geez, Grumpy, you have a charming faith in the ability of anyone to predict where a Cat 5 storm is going to go next. I'm sure that others have been wondering why those ships weren't back in the OTHER Gulf supporting Marines in Iraq.

Quote:
Originally Posted by justin
It seems like not many of you complaining about the relief effort have ever been through a hurricane before. I’ve been through a few decent sized hurricanes before. We were 100 miles inland, and the storm was much much weaker than Katrina. And we’re above sea level. The damage we sustained was no where near as bad as Katrina’s damage. However, conditions were bad. No electricity for weeks, no gas, no food or water (except what you had before the storm). Many homes destroyed or rendered uninhabitable. It took a while for authorities to stabilize our relatively minor disaster. I can only imagine the logistical nightmare it must be to try to deal with 100,000-250,000 survivors/refugees, arm an assault force against roaming mobs of armed crazies, perform search and rescue in the midst of all this. The area is basically a third world country now. The infrastructure for transportation, communication, fuel, medical care, food, electricity, potable water, sewage, etc. are all gone. The environment in New Orleans is much worse than around NYC after 9/11. NYC was intact for the most part, with the exception of the World Trade Center site and surrounding area.
You said it, Justin. If you haven't lived in, during, & through the aftermath of a major hurricane than you're nothing better than a Monday-morning quarterback.

My personal experience includes Mt. Pinatubo & Hurricane Iniki. I wouldn't dream of criticizing a bunch of ship drivers and emergency planners who had to make decisions with inadequate tools & insufficient data... to say nothing of funds & training.

And next week we're off to Home Depot to buy a couple hundred square feet of plywood for our windows while we keep a nervous eye on the next tropical storm. If there's any good to come out of this, it's the huge overhaul we've done on our personal emergency planning. We haven't made a decision yet on firearms-- I have more faith in running like a scared bunny rabbit-- but we're boosting the non-perishable food to two weeks.
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Re: Horrifying
Old 09-05-2005, 01:22 AM   #173
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Re: Horrifying

Yes, I do believe that all politicians are equally inept and
not worthy of trust. * I have no respect for any political party
(which is why I do not vote). Now, to answer your question about
"always supporting Republicans", it's simple. *They at least have a chance of gaining power and they are a lot closer to my positions on issues I care about. *Really, in spite of my contempt it's a no-brainer to support them. *Clear now?

Is this saying that you'd support whichever party that "at least have a chance of gaining power"? It's abruptly clear to some, but somewhere I lost the logic...

I can't support generalities such as all politicians are 'this or that', or to freely associate the Katrina disaster with Branch Davidians, or the Iran hostage standoff. I do know that I've not lived long enough to acquire a cynicism that would cause me to be completely disenfranchised.

I still hope to vote in Administration that would protect the Constitution and its amendments instead of enacting laws that attack my civil liberties. I have hope that separation between church and state will be preserved as fundamental tenets in our system of government. I look forward to the day when Science will prosper under an Administration that is more concerned with saving lives than advancing its own religious ideology. I *am anxious to see that my tax dollars will provide education to those who are least educated and to stop the widening gap between those who can afford it and those who can't.

I have hope for Administration that will advance healthcare coverage for the poor and the elderly because it is the right thing to do. I await the day that propagandists do not question my patriotism because I disagree with its wartime policies. I believe those who state "if you don't like it then get out of the country", will someday embrace possibilities and not be satisfied with the country's limitations. Most of all I hope for an Administration that will no longer shame this nation in the eyes of its people and the world.

I vote because I have hope and without hope we're animals. Sorry for the long post but Katrina made me do it. *:

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