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Old 04-26-2010, 05:51 PM   #41
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Thank goodness my relatives are pretty normal (without damaging dependencies or noticeable financial issues)
Same here. So no stories to tell. But if one wanted my opinion, I would give it. But none gives a rip what I think anyway.
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Old 04-26-2010, 06:20 PM   #42
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IMHO, there is absolutely nothing wrong with giving advice. The problem arises how you do it and once you have given it. Most cannot give advice in a dispassionate fashion, and more importantly, disassociate any further contact surrounding that advice. Most become emotionally involved in the outcome, and continue to push for that outcome, and therein is the problem.

I greatly admire TE Lawrence (of Lawrence of Arabia fame): One of the reasons for my admiration is that Lawrence would make a statement once, if you weren’t smart enough to see his point, he moved on, wasting no more energy trying to convince someone of his position.
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Old 04-26-2010, 07:03 PM   #43
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I greatly admire TE Lawrence (of Lawrence of Arabia fame): One of the reasons for my admiration is that Lawrence would make a statement once, if you weren’t smart enough to see his point, he moved on, wasting no more energy trying to convince someone of his position.
Is this found in Seven Pillars of Wisdom?

Ha
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Old 04-26-2010, 07:08 PM   #44
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IMHO, there is absolutely nothing wrong with giving advice. The problem arises how you do it and once you have given it. Most cannot give advice in a dispassionate fashion, and more importantly, disassociate any further contact surrounding that advice. Most become emotionally involved in the outcome, and continue to push for that outcome, and therein is the problem.

I greatly admire TE Lawrence (of Lawrence of Arabia fame): One of the reasons for my admiration is that Lawrence would make a statement once, if you weren’t smart enough to see his point, he moved on, wasting no more energy trying to convince someone of his position.
Good points.
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Old 04-26-2010, 07:10 PM   #45
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Or himself- bad either way. I just don't like physical confrontations,
I've never thought about it before, but perhaps an alternative to physically taking the keys would be:

Call 911 in front of your friend and say "My drunk friend, license plate 409 EFG is considering driving from 345 W 51 Street to his home at 314 Elm. Would you like to talk to him to help him decide?"
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Old 04-26-2010, 07:17 PM   #46
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That is brilliant Al. The situation will likely never occur again, but if it does I now have a plan.

Ha
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Old 04-26-2010, 07:40 PM   #47
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Is this found in Seven Pillars of Wisdom?

Ha
Not so much in SEVEN PILLARS as conclusions I have drawn from reading his letters and various biographies.

A fascinating individual and I encourage you to spend time learning about him if you have read SEVEN PILLARS and found it interesting. Lawrence was truly an enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in mystery: he went from being Colonel Lawrence and known throughout the world as "Lawrence of Arabia" to TE Shaw, a simply aircraftman in the RAF.
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Old 04-26-2010, 08:08 PM   #48
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I tried reading the Seven Pillars once. Didn't make it 100 pages. It ranks right up there with Ulysses in my list of books that are definitely above my pay grade.
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Old 04-26-2010, 08:44 PM   #49
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I tried reading the Seven Pillars once. Didn't make it 100 pages. It ranks right up there with Ulysses in my list of books that are definitely above my pay grade.
I'm in deep trouble if it is above your pay grade. I'm going through Ulysses now as we speak, with cheat sheets. I trudge on believing the blurb about there being an easy chapter in there somewhere.
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Old 04-26-2010, 08:49 PM   #50
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I was crazy about Seven Pillars of Wisdom back in Junior High. I read it several times even though it wasn't on our school reading list (so it didn't "count"). I thought Lawrence was the most magnificent, adventuresome, exciting, handsome man and all that implies when a young girl thinks such things.

Maybe it is more exciting to a junior high school girl than to a grown man, IP. Also I probably skipped over some of the less vibrant sections.

When the movie came out in 1962, I was in seventh heaven since I had already read the book at least 4 times. The movie was pretty good but I felt it skipped over so much.
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Old 04-26-2010, 08:52 PM   #51
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I liked the movie. Does that count?
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Old 04-26-2010, 09:00 PM   #52
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I liked the movie. Does that count?
No! It doesn't count.
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Old 04-27-2010, 06:30 AM   #53
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That is brilliant Al. The situation will likely never occur again, but if it does I now have a plan.

Ha
But what if he punches you in the face?
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Old 04-27-2010, 09:08 AM   #54
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I only give advice when asked. Only people who ever asked were my mother and daughter. That suits me just fine.
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Old 04-27-2010, 11:16 AM   #55
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Trying to change someone else is futile at best & often as not makes things worse. Regarding friends & relative's marital choices, the reality is that no one outside of that marriage really knows what is going on. There are rarely innocent parties in marital woes. Sometimes it is just incompatibility that triggers the worst in each spouse. The apparently standup spouse. Could. In reality be very abusive. Or not. Outsiders simply don't know. I just give noncommital supportive and keep my personal prejudices to myself in these cases. The decisions have to be made for each individual. My choices may or may not be the right ones for someone else. Plus the aggreived party can turn on you in a heartbeat with accusations of interferring if you agree with them about their spouse.

When it comes to addicts or other toxic people, helping usually makes things worse. You pretty much need pros to attempt an intervention with any hope of success. I simply do what I need to keep myself and others safe. These are seriously self-destructive people and they will drag you down with them if you let them. Only if there is a honest cry for help will it have any positive effect. It is really important in dealing wth toxic people to have strong & healthy personal boundaries.

I don't let other people including relatives know what monetary resources I have. Maybe I'm selfish but I have what I need to be secure and didn't get some things so I would be secure. Others who are not so "fortunate" invariably made foolish choices repeatedly instead of my LBYM choices. If I allow my spendthrift relations to tap me, it won't be long before I'm no longer secure.
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Old 04-27-2010, 12:51 PM   #56
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I only give advice when asked.
Ditto.
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Old 04-27-2010, 01:26 PM   #57
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Old 04-27-2010, 03:23 PM   #58
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Great thread, Ha.

Having suffered through very dysfunctional family situations, I've learned the following:

If a certain behavior in any way would harm me or someone I care about, then they will get my opinion whether they like it or not - your example of the car keys with the drunk is a good one. I frankly don't care usually if you wish to hurt yourself but if you take someone with you, then I have a problem if it is someone I care about. Drugs, drinking, gambling - any of those addictive behaviors are not those which I condone because they are destructive to many - and unfortunately, it takes a long time to figure out how to defend yourself as one of the bystanders.

With that, if asked for advice, I will give it. Otherwise, I won't. What I find interesting, however, is my friends come to me when they really need support - something has happened that rocks their world and for some reason, they think I can help them. I'm a very loyal person, but I can also be dispassionate in analyzing a situation and helping them see a larger picture. However, I don't expect them to take my advice - I'm just glad they asked.

My circle of friends and family that I share that type of a relationship with is quite small, however. Which is good, I'm busy doing other stuff :-)
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Old 04-27-2010, 04:44 PM   #59
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I try to keep my yap shut with giving too much advice to others--and I never would interfere with someone's marriage or how they raised their children unless I saw abuse--but I would say something definitely if I saw someone making a totally stupid business move and have before. They went ahead with their own plan anyway, and came back to tell me they wish they had listened. I told them just to consider it one of life's lessons and try again.
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Old 04-27-2010, 09:54 PM   #60
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I have occasionally been asked for advice (weird to be 'an elder'); always respond with a disclaimer.
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