Hybrid Car Break Even Point

[nash031]

Saw my first Clarity in the parking lot today. I think I like the styling. Sharper than a Prius or Camry Hybrid for sure, not quite the Accord Hybrid which looks just like the regular Accords. Clarity is pretty close. Almost like the Prius and Accord had a love child that came out looking more like Accord.

 

[nash031]

I don't think my comment was out of line...too many "green" initiatives exist only because someone else pays for them.



Perhaps the easiest way to recover a road tax would be to build the fee into the charging stations, just like the road tax is built into the price of a gallon of gas. Charge $$ per unit of electricity used and then it's taxed the same way gasoline powered vehicles are taxed...

Doesn’t capture folks that charge at home, and you can’t get gas from your backyard.

 

[Bamaman]

I rented a small Renault SUV in Ireland a week ago, and it's diesel got over 50 mpg. Fuel was.$6.04 a U.S. Gallon, however. It was so quiet you wouldn't know it was a diesel.

My 2018 Camry Hybrid is 100% new generation. We see 52 mpg in town and 48.5 mpg @ 80 mph on interstates. 0-60 mph is 7.5 seconds, and it is almost silent running in the city. Hybrids and electric vehicles are the cars of the future, and owners will be very pleased with them--even at a $4k price differential.

 

[Music Lover]

Doesn’t capture folks that charge at home, and you can’t get gas from your backyard.

Then perhaps the only fair solution is a surcharge on the purchase price of the vehicle.

 

[Zathras]

While I think hybrids can make a lot of sense for people who put enough miles on their car, I absolutely hate this "equivalent MPG" rating.

It makes no sense, and that makes it misleading. You simply cannot use one number to represent a combination of two different things like that. So they should not do it.

What they should say is - you get X miles/kWh for the first Y miles, then you get X MPG after that.

That is two different numbers, combining them makes no sense.

-ERD50

As long as you are using the tool for its intended purpose, MPGe makes perfect sense. I have yet to hear of a better option for the public in general.

I agree a combined vehicle like a gas hybrid isn’t the best use for it. Luckily the epa sticker gives gas range, electric range, US average cost for both.

For comparing relative efficiency between a gas and electric car, it is a simple calculation that puts both gas and electric cars on the same measuring stick.

 

[48Fire]

I don't think my comment was out of line...too many "green" initiatives exist only because someone else pays for them.

Don't all tax deductions and tax credits come out of someone else's pocket to some degree? If I get a mortgage deduction, and the renter next door doesn't, they pay for that, right? Same with child care deductions, etc.

For one reason or another, tax incentives are given to encourage a certain behavior. I think that these are usually strategic in nature, hoping to stimulate something - home ownership, less dependence on gasoline, etc.

 

[48Fire]

I am agreeing with you. But the Government mandated labeling should be cutting thorough marketing gimmicks, and providing solid information to the consumer. It isn't.




But it fails to do this. It is only true under one specific condition. One that the consumer might not match.

An analogy to illustrate:

A supplier offers Widgets for $10 in single quantities, $9 if you buy 10-50, and $7 if you buy 51-100.

Now give me one number for the cost of a Widget. If you do, I need to reverse engineer that to figure out what quantity was being purchased. And I need the full info to do it anyhow.

The simple description is to spell it out as it is, a $ amount at each quantity. You cannot express that with one number. You could do it with an Nth order polynomial, but that is what is beyond the average consumer.

-ERD50

I would LOVE to see an Nth order polynomial on the window sticker of a new car - and watch my wife's stomach turn over

 

[gerntz]

It's really sad diesels are being drummed off the face of the planet.

I prefer my asthma under control more easily than I'm sad about diesels going the way of the dodo.

 

[gerntz]

My state is currently looking at a roads tax based upon total miles driven each year. How they would do this is beyond me.

Not hard: Have inspectors outside the registration locations that certify odometer reading.

 

[gerntz]

I can’t imagine a more powerful disincentive to purchasing a hybrid given the opportunity cost of that additional tax added to the already additional expense of hybrid vehicles. That would seem like a marked step backwards for the hybrid market.

Not the government's job to market hybrids. Auto makers getting hybrids' pricing in line with straight gasoline vehicles is the answer.

 

[gerntz]

Actually, one the confusing things of moving to the Netherlands from Belgium (right next door!) is that the Dutch talk about kilometers / liter, and the Belgians talk about liters / 100 kilometer.

Yea, but what kind of mileage do they get?

 

[gerntz]

Then perhaps the only fair solution is a surcharge on the purchase price of the vehicle.

No, because that charges every vehicle the same regardless of how much a car is driven. Inspectors at registration locations can certify odometer readings each year before registration & fee can be based on miles driven the previous year.

 

[Gumby]

No, because that charges every vehicle the same regardless of how much a car is driven. Inspectors at registration locations can certify odometer readings each year before registration & fee can be based on miles driven the previous year.

You do know you can reply to multiple posts in a single reply?

Yea, but what kind of mileage do they get?

You do know you can reply to multiple posts in a single reply?

Not the government's job to market hybrids. Auto makers getting hybrids' pricing in line with straight gasoline vehicles is the answer.

You do know you can reply to multiple posts in a single reply?

Not hard: Have inspectors outside the registration locations that certify odometer reading.

You do know you can reply to multiple posts in a single reply?

I prefer my asthma under control more easily than I'm sad about diesels going the way of the dodo.

You do know you can reply to multiple posts in a single reply?

Simply hit the "multi+" button on the bottom right of each of the posts at issue. Then reply to each of them in the appropriate space between posts.

 

[meierlde]

Not hard: Have inspectors outside the registration locations that certify odometer reading.

Or as in Texas where safety inspection is required state wide and they collect the milage as part of the inspection, just use the data already there. Note that when vehicles are sold, the seller attests that the mileage is accurate.

 

[Music Lover]

No, because that charges every vehicle the same regardless of how much a car is driven. Inspectors at registration locations can certify odometer readings each year before registration & fee can be based on miles driven the previous year.

So what? The current incentive to purchase an electric vehicle does exactly that...it pays the same regardless of the miles driven.

 

[nash031]

Then perhaps the only fair solution is a surcharge on the purchase price of the vehicle.

Or, you know, what I suggested contrary to an arbitrary surcharge that would kill the market.

 

[nash031]

Not the government's job to market hybrids. Auto makers getting hybrids' pricing in line with straight gasoline vehicles is the answer.

I didn’t say it was, but it is the government’s job to not show preference to a certain product (IMO). They’re doing so now by omitting road tax via gas for electrics. That said, there are options out there to ensure users pay a road use tax without making a hybrid purchaser pay more at the front end in taxes than someone else. That is punitive, considering opportunity cost.

Hybrid tech is more expensive than ICE. It’s coming down, but I doubt it ever comes in line with ICE because of the additional complexity.

 

[Mr._Graybeard]

I test drove one too recently (Not the plug in version). Very nice and sporty and roomy. Much different than the appliance-like feel of the Prius and looks a lot better also.

Honda has always brought more excitement to the driving equation than Toyota. But overall, Toyota has the reliability advantage. It's the Japanese version of Mercedes vs. BMW.

 

[aja8888]

Honda has always brought more excitement to the driving equation than Toyota. But overall, Toyota has the reliability advantage. It's the Japanese version of Mercedes vs. BMW.

I recently test drove the Hyundai ioniq, not a Honda. Honda has historically failed miserably with their hybrids.

 

[brucethebroker]

Note: the $1.40 increase also includes higher gas taxes passed a few years ago when the price of gasoline was near a multi-year low.

I'm sure it was only a temp tax and will be removed now that the price is back up, right?

 

[Music Lover]

I didn’t say it was, but it is the government’s job to not show preference to a certain product (IMO). They’re doing so now by omitting road tax via gas for electrics. That said, there are options out there to ensure users pay a road use tax without making a hybrid purchaser pay more at the front end in taxes than someone else. That is punitive, considering opportunity cost.

The government already shows preference by front loading the incentive for electric purchases.

But, it does have to change at some point so that everyone pays their fair share.

 

[gerntz]

You do know you can reply to multiple posts in a single reply?

You do know you can reply to multiple posts in a single reply?

You do know you can reply to multiple posts in a single reply?

You do know you can reply to multiple posts in a single reply?



You do know you can reply to multiple posts in a single reply?

Simply hit the "multi+" button on the bottom right of each of the posts at issue. Then reply to each of them in the appropriate space between posts.

Thanks. But why would I want to?

 

[gerntz]

So what? The current incentive to purchase an electric vehicle does exactly that...it pays the same regardless of the miles driven.

Which has nothing to do with how much road damage is done by miles driven.

 

[ncbill]

Road damage is by weight, so its not EVs or even large SUVs, but commercial vehicles that don't pay their "fair share" via a per-gallon (or liter) fuel tax.

Some states now charge $100/year for EVs at their annual registration renewal.

 

[nash031]

Road damage is by weight, so its not EVs or even large SUVs, but commercial vehicles that don't pay their "fair share" via a per-gallon (or liter) fuel tax.

Some states now charge $100/year for EVs at their annual registration renewal.

This is exactly why I suggested a tax/fee on annual renewal scaled by GVW. There's no audit or check required. You're registering the car, and the the vehicle weights are readily available. After market mods to vehicles like pickups and Jeeps would probably just have to be considered a loss in order to keep it simple.

Agree that commercial vehicles are the biggest problem.