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View Poll Results: When will you pruchase a hybrid vehicle
Already have 1 or more 17 16.50%
In 1-2 year 7 6.80%
In 3-5 years 26 25.24%
In 6-10 years 18 17.48%
Never 35 33.98%
Voters: 103. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 05-11-2008, 06:26 PM   #81
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Where I live we have 7 months of winter and it can get colder than 50 below. In order for the heater to work, the gasoline engine in a hybrid would have to run full time. Not every efficient and not very likely I'll ever own one.

Funny, there's no emoticon freezing my b...s off.
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Old 05-11-2008, 06:31 PM   #82
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Old 05-11-2008, 07:17 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by Zathras View Post
The 'premium' isn't really all that much. Especially when you take into account the tax breaks (although for the Prius I think that one is ending soon).
I own one, my wife owns one. I will likely not buy another as I plan to purchase an all electric vehicle next (2-5 years).
As for pay back, if you don't want a higher mpg car, that is fine. But why talk about pay back? How much time passes to pay you back for the added price of a sunroof, or fancy radio, or heated seats?
For this person I wanted high mpg for two reasons. One is the enviornment (yes yes, I know the Prius isn't perfect in this area, but it is better), two is our national security. We need to import less oil and if my representatives wont work to take the country in that direction, I will do what I can personally.
Around here many would probably laugh at spending as much as I am willing to to do this. But many of the general public will spend 35k on a car so they can have leather, heated seats, and a luxury name. Well I will do that to buy a Prius with the PHEV conversion so I can get 90mpg

As others have noted, the type of driving will alter your mpg by quite a bit (this is even moreso with the PHEV modules). So if it is a purely economic question for you (which is perfectly fine) consider the type of driving you are going to do and talk with some owners of the brand you are looking at.
Let's say everybody magically owned a prius tomorrow and all the
existing cars have magically disappeared. How will you then be more secure?
To me it seems quite difficult to
make a good case for that theory.

As far as your payback comments, i agree with you, if you like the idea
of a hybrid and you are willing to pay the price for your "idealized car"
then go ahead. that's why most people buy
cars above a certain price range (as far as i can tell).
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Old 05-11-2008, 08:34 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by Want2retire View Post
I have nothing "against" hybrids and will buy one when it is the most economical and reliable option (for me). Hybrids still aren't for me, though they are getting closer. I think we don't have the information necessary to predict when they will reach this point. Government and the automotive and insurance industries can all affect how good of a deal a hybrid would be for me.

I voted "never" because I will probably buy another Camry Solara in 2010 when I am 62, and drive it until sometime in my 70's when I will stop driving completely due to age.
...by then 70's will be the new 40's...You'll probably be driving well into your 80's...BTW, I agree with you 100%. Buying a hybrid vehicle today is not the most economical choice for me at this time.

Jim
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Old 05-11-2008, 08:57 PM   #85
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The problem I see is he is comparing todays hybrids to hypothetical Flex Fuel cars running on cellulosic ethonal.
Also, the comparison is for the cars direct emmisions and not the emmisions from the growth and harvest, or production of the fuels.
I do agree with him that the overall CO2 savings are not nearly as big as the hype would suggest.
However, the reason for that is the hype is not solely about reducing CO2 emmissions. It is about people being able to use less gasoline.
I also agree with him that the current corn based ethanol is an interim step on our way to cellulosic ethanol which will be a much better solution.
However, by the time we have cellulosic ethonal in large scale production and distribution I think we will also have pure EVs. And pure EVs will put the ethanol vehicles to shame if he wishes to use the same emmission standards (only considering emmissions only from the car itself).
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Hybrid or something else . . .
Old 05-12-2008, 01:26 AM   #86
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Hybrid or something else . . .

Replacing one of our two well-maintained and good-condition cars with a hybrid doesn't make economic, environmental, or even political sense right now.

On the economic front, it just doesn't make sense to trade in a working vehicle on one that gets better gas mileage. We could sell the most valuable of our two vehicles (a 2001 Hyundai Santa Fe) for perhaps $8000 while a new Prius costs about $24,000. That's a difference of $16K to earn a 125% mpg improvement from 21 miles per gallon to 47. Even with gas at $10/gallon I'd have to drive 60,000 miles (about six years the way I drive) before I'd break even on the transaction. Only then would a Prius start earning it's keep, and that assumes $10/gal gas!

On the environmental front, making our cars takes energy, too. Not just the energy to mine the basic materials we build them from, but the energy to turn those materials into a final product, the shipping of components, and even the energy used to get the workers to the places they needed to be to make the car. And then there's more energy spent converting the junked car into a new, usable product. When you junk a car all that energy is lost.

Politically -- and thinking "politics" in a very broad sense right now -- I don't think it makes sense, either. My last car, a '92 Geo Metro, got 44 MPG, just a hair under what a Toyota Prius gets now, and it wasn't a hybrid. The old Honda CRV got even better gas mileage than my Metro, about 60 MPG. Treating a Prius like an MPG night in shining armor is short-sighted politics, not politics taking a long view. My political message should not be that the answer to our gas mileage woes is a Prius, I want something better than a Prius.

We already know how to make more efficient cars. All we have to do is apply that knowledge and do it, something I think the car manufacturers are gearing up to do right now, though I expect it'll take three years or so for the makers to design and re-tool their lines to produce the new cars. As our cars wear out and need replacement I'm hoping I'll be able to buy something more efficient than a gas-guzzling Prius!

I currently do other things to save gas. I've always used mass-transit, combined shopping trips, and ride the bus two to three days a week instead of taking my car. My wife, who doesn't have easy bus access to where she works, drives our 36 MPG Toyota Corolla. And, in a few years when my son leaves the nest, we'll buy a smaller (read "more energy efficient) home located closer to shops (bicycling and walking distance would be nice) with better mass-transit options. Doing these things will, in the long run, save much more gas than buying a Prius.
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Old 05-12-2008, 08:03 AM   #87
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On the economic front, it just doesn't make sense to trade in a working vehicle on one that gets better gas mileage.
I absolutely agree. Most of my friends and myself that have bought hybrids only do so when we are planning to buy a new car anyways.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Insanity View Post
We could sell the most valuable of our two vehicles (a 2001 Hyundai Santa Fe) for perhaps $8000 while a new Prius costs about $24,000. That's a difference of $16K to earn a 125% mpg improvement from 21 miles per gallon to 47. Even with gas at $10/gallon I'd have to drive 60,000 miles (about six years the way I drive) before I'd break even on the transaction. Only then would a Prius start earning it's keep, and that assumes $10/gal gas!
For that money though gas mileage is not the ONLY thing you are getting. You are also getting any other improvements between your old and new cars. It may not make up all the cost difference but it will make up for quite a bit of it.


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Originally Posted by Insanity View Post
On the environmental front, making our cars takes energy, too. Not just the energy to mine the basic materials we build them from, but the energy to turn those materials into a final product, the shipping of components, and even the energy used to get the workers to the places they needed to be to make the car. And then there's more energy spent converting the junked car into a new, usable product. When you junk a car all that energy is lost.
This is a great point which I think a lot of people don't consider. Very few people look at issues long term and plan accordingly. If the old car meets your needs, no reason to change.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Insanity View Post
Politically -- and thinking "politics" in a very broad sense right now -- I don't think it makes sense, either. My last car, a '92 Geo Metro, got 44 MPG, just a hair under what a Toyota Prius gets now, and it wasn't a hybrid. The old Honda CRV got even better gas mileage than my Metro, about 60 MPG. Treating a Prius like an MPG night in shining armor is short-sighted politics, not politics taking a long view. My political message should not be that the answer to our gas mileage woes is a Prius, I want something better than a Prius.
I agree with you, I want something better too. However, at this time I am unable to find anything better. If an older car gets the same or better mieage than the best available on the market now (in the US) by all means, stick with it and more power to you

Quote:
Originally Posted by Insanity View Post
We already know how to make more efficient cars. All we have to do is apply that knowledge and do it, something I think the car manufacturers are gearing up to do right now, though I expect it'll take three years or so for the makers to design and re-tool their lines to produce the new cars. As our cars wear out and need replacement I'm hoping I'll be able to buy something more efficient than a gas-guzzling Prius!
I won't refuse 'better' because 'best isn't available yet. If I need a car, I will buy the best on the market, and right now, that is a Prius. That may change next year, or in a couple. I hope it does because that would mean more compitition which hopefully would drive better and better products.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Insanity View Post
I currently do other things to save gas. I've always used mass-transit, combined shopping trips, and ride the bus two to three days a week instead of taking my car. My wife, who doesn't have easy bus access to where she works, drives our 36 MPG Toyota Corolla. And, in a few years when my son leaves the nest, we'll buy a smaller (read "more energy efficient) home located closer to shops (bicycling and walking distance would be nice) with better mass-transit options. Doing these things will, in the long run, save much more gas than buying a Prius.
Absolutley, and I applaud you. If everyone that could followed your lead we wouldn't me in nearly as much of a mess.
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Old 05-12-2008, 08:59 AM   #88
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Replacing one of our two well-maintained and good-condition cars with a hybrid doesn't make economic, environmental, or even political sense right now.

On the economic front, it just doesn't make sense to trade in a working vehicle on one that gets better gas mileage. We could sell the most valuable of our two vehicles (a 2001 Hyundai Santa Fe) for perhaps $8000 while a new Prius costs about $24,000. That's a difference of $16K to earn a 125% mpg improvement from 21 miles per gallon to 47. Even with gas at $10/gallon I'd have to drive 60,000 miles (about six years the way I drive) before I'd break even on the transaction. Only then would a Prius start earning it's keep, and that assumes $10/gal gas!

On the environmental front, making our cars takes energy, too. Not just the energy to mine the basic materials we build them from, but the energy to turn those materials into a final product, the shipping of components, and even the energy used to get the workers to the places they needed to be to make the car. And then there's more energy spent converting the junked car into a new, usable product. When you junk a car all that energy is lost.

Politically -- and thinking "politics" in a very broad sense right now -- I don't think it makes sense, either. My last car, a '92 Geo Metro, got 44 MPG, just a hair under what a Toyota Prius gets now, and it wasn't a hybrid. The old Honda CRV got even better gas mileage than my Metro, about 60 MPG. Treating a Prius like an MPG night in shining armor is short-sighted politics, not politics taking a long view. My political message should not be that the answer to our gas mileage woes is a Prius, I want something better than a Prius.

We already know how to make more efficient cars. All we have to do is apply that knowledge and do it, something I think the car manufacturers are gearing up to do right now, though I expect it'll take three years or so for the makers to design and re-tool their lines to produce the new cars. As our cars wear out and need replacement I'm hoping I'll be able to buy something more efficient than a gas-guzzling Prius!

I currently do other things to save gas. I've always used mass-transit, combined shopping trips, and ride the bus two to three days a week instead of taking my car. My wife, who doesn't have easy bus access to where she works, drives our 36 MPG Toyota Corolla. And, in a few years when my son leaves the nest, we'll buy a smaller (read "more energy efficient) home located closer to shops (bicycling and walking distance would be nice) with better mass-transit options. Doing these things will, in the long run, save much more gas than buying a Prius.
I completely agree with this entire post--well said.
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Old 05-12-2008, 09:50 AM   #89
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The old Honda CRV got even better gas mileage than my Metro, about 60 MPG.
That's amazing, was it 4WD?? I have NEVER heard of an SUV getting that...........
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Old 05-12-2008, 02:36 PM   #90
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Oops! That should have read CRX (A 2-place Honda Civic variant, not an SUV.)

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That's amazing, was it 4WD?? I have NEVER heard of an SUV getting that...........
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