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Re: Hydrogen Hoax and real Alternative Fuels for cars
Old 02-20-2007, 06:19 AM   #81
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Re: Hydrogen Hoax and real Alternative Fuels for cars

Semantics, using Hy as the carrier is a choice as opposed to gasoline, or alcohol, etc.

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Re: Hydrogen Hoax and real Alternative Fuels for cars
Old 02-20-2007, 08:12 AM   #82
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Re: Hydrogen Hoax and real Alternative Fuels for cars

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Originally Posted by Daddy O
Semantics, using Hy as the carrier is a choice as opposed to gasoline, or alcohol, etc.

job
No, it is not semantics. There is a critical diference.

Oil is not just a carrier, it is a *source* of stored energy (solar energy from a million years ago). We pump it out of the ground, clean it up and burn it. We get to release it's energy just for pumping and refining it.

There are no mines or wells of free hydrogen. We need to provide ALL the energy into it to make it. It always takes more energy in than what you get out. So it is just a carrier of energy.

Alcohol, in part, is solar collection. The plant absorbs/converts energy from the sun. We need to put energy in to convert this to useful fuel, but it can be done at a net positive. So, it is also a sourece of energy.

Hydrogen is no more a *source* of energy than a battery is - both effectively need to be 'charged' from a power source. You get less out than you put in. Very big difference.

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Re: Hydrogen Hoax and real Alternative Fuels for cars
Old 02-27-2007, 02:13 PM   #83
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Re: Hydrogen Hoax and real Alternative Fuels for cars

Source or carrier .. I don't care. Oil, coal, peat are all sources, but i do not intend to convert my car to a steam engine when oil runs low. As always one main issue is one of scale. What does it take to supply the world with all alcohol. How much fresh water is needed to process, space to grow the plants, etc. Brasil has had success, but they have lots of space, and lots of water and lots of cheap hydro energy. I do not imagine China will have nearly the sucess if they try to run the country on alcohol. Anyway, my nickles worth is there will be multiple partial solutions for the next 50, 100, 200 years.

http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/070227/cltu068.html?.v=80

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Re: Hydrogen Hoax and real Alternative Fuels for cars
Old 02-27-2007, 02:24 PM   #84
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Re: Hydrogen Hoax and real Alternative Fuels for cars

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Originally Posted by ERD50
There are no mines or wells of free hydrogen. We need to provide ALL the energy into it to make it. It always takes more energy in than what you get out. So it is just a carrier of energy.
Water + sunlight = hydrogen

+ some platinum and silicon, etc.


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Re: Hydrogen Hoax and real Alternative Fuels for cars
Old 02-27-2007, 02:57 PM   #85
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Re: Hydrogen Hoax and real Alternative Fuels for cars

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Water + sunlight = hydrogen

+ some platinum and silicon, etc.
And that same process produces electricity. It appears to be more efficient to just use the electricity directly, rather than waste energy converting it to hydrogen, and then getting the energy out of the hydrogen.

And no 'breakthoroughs' in technology are required.

See the tesla motors link. - ERD50
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Re: Hydrogen Hoax and real Alternative Fuels for cars
Old 02-27-2007, 03:56 PM   #86
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Re: Hydrogen Hoax and real Alternative Fuels for cars

Except at night when there is no light to make the electricity. Then it would be nice to have a way to store it up.

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Re: Hydrogen Hoax and real Alternative Fuels for cars
Old 02-27-2007, 10:38 PM   #87
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Re: Hydrogen Hoax and real Alternative Fuels for cars

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Except at night when there is no light to make the electricity. Then it would be nice to have a way to store it up.

job
Well, that will not even be an issue until we produce more electricity with solar than we can use during the day. We appear to be many years away from having that much solar power installed. Until then, there is no excess to store.

If/when we approach that time, the most efficient storage method can be used. It might be hydrogen (I doubt it - too costly, too many losses), it might be batteries, flywheels, compressed air, pumping up a water reservoir, or, who knows what?

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