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I feel bad for those climbers families, However..
Old 12-18-2006, 07:15 PM   #1
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I feel bad for those climbers families, However..

Why should the state have to fund the attempt to find these guys?

Bottom line if they go and get in trouble they should have insurance to cover all costs to find them or they should repay the costs.

When they headed up to that peak there were weather reports that said a monster storm was brewing.
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Re: I feel bad for those climbers families, However..
Old 12-18-2006, 07:34 PM   #2
 
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Re: I feel bad for those climbers families, However..

I agree. In fact do you know one of the functions of the Coast Guard is to rescue Multi-million Dollar boaters that have trouble at sea.

Not to mention the Fire Fighters of Multi-Million Dollar McMansions caught in the Santa Ana Winds in California.

The ultra Rich soak up Social Services like no one else on the planet and spend more time complaining about taxes than anyone else!
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Re: I feel bad for those climbers families, However..
Old 12-18-2006, 07:36 PM   #3
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Re: I feel bad for those climbers families, However..

That's pretty impressive-- politics and insurance both in the same rant!

You did say that you were going to cut back on the political rants, but I had no idea this is what you had in mind...
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Re: I feel bad for those climbers families, However..
Old 12-18-2006, 07:40 PM   #4
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Re: I feel bad for those climbers families, However..

Needing to secure insurance to be allowed to climb would be a realty check wouldn't it?

Can you imagine an actuary looking at this? Uh, three guys in early middle age, from Dallas and New Jersey, want to take a route up a high glacier covered mountain in Oregon that is considered very risky in mid summer. But wait- they want to do it in December!

Uh, let me think. I think we can get together a group and some re-insurers. We won't spend more than $1mm, regardless of whether we find you or not. And the premium will be $200,000, in cash. And we also need each of you to buy an annuity from us, to be sure you are actually planning on coming back

Ha
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Re: I feel bad for those climbers families, However..
Old 12-18-2006, 07:56 PM   #5
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Re: I feel bad for those climbers families, However..

You guys are so horrible, but I can't help but laugh.

We have rescue operations every spring ice breakup on Lake Superior. Guys go out ice fishing, the ice breaks away and they go floating off somewhere. Search and rescue has to go pick them up. A year or two ago search and rescue picked up some guys. The guys had to leave their ATVs behind. They were livid. The searchers said that when the ice broke up and their ATVs sank they would be billed for the environmental contamination.

Don't know how it all worked out.

The smart guys haul along a boat.
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Re: I feel bad for those climbers families, However..
Old 12-18-2006, 07:58 PM   #6
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Re: I feel bad for those climbers families, However..

One of my children was a classmate of a child with a sib in the OES climbing disaster. As a result a fund was established to provide emergency locators to climbers. I heard one climber who excused their failure to carry one to weight. Give me a break. If you are climbing in winter and the locator is too much to carry you aren't strong enough for the climb.

This is a perfect example of people who set a schedule and are unable to change because they are committed to a plan.
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Re: I feel bad for those climbers families, However..
Old 12-18-2006, 08:02 PM   #7
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Re: I feel bad for those climbers families, However..

Right up there with the Maibu Mansions on all the coasts that are allowed to be rebuilt time and again. This is absurd! Bill them all for the use of services. That is fair to me.
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Re: I feel bad for those climbers families, However..
Old 12-18-2006, 08:07 PM   #8
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Re: I feel bad for those climbers families, However..

I believe people who request medical help and evacuations do pay for the services. When I hiked down the Grand Canyon to Phantom Ranch I was told about it.

I some - probably not all - of the costs for this rescue attempt will be charged to the person or their families - I'm not sure about that.
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Re: I feel bad for those climbers families, However..
Old 12-18-2006, 08:15 PM   #9
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Re: I feel bad for those climbers families, However..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cut-Throat
I agree. In fact do you know one of the functions of the Coast Guard is to rescue Multi-million Dollar boaters that have trouble at sea.

Not to mention the Fire Fighters of Multi-Million Dollar McMansions caught in the Santa Ana Winds in California.

The ultra Rich soak up Social Services like no one else on the planet and spend more time complaining about taxes than anyone else!
Cedar shingle MacMansions without brush clearance and located down narrow dirt roads.

[edited for formatting]
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Re: I feel bad for those climbers families, However..
Old 12-18-2006, 08:19 PM   #10
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Re: I feel bad for those climbers families, However..

I heard a program on NPR about this very subject a coupe of days ago. They interviewed the head of a national S&R group and asked who should bear the costs for rescues. She pointed out that most of the searchers in an effort like this were unpaid volunteers. Also, the military uses these rescue missions as training opportunities, providing real world experience to aircrews.

Many people called in to express some of the same opinions we're seeing posted here: If you don't have enough sense to stay out of trouble you should have to pay for being rescued or having your remains returned for burial.

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Re: I feel bad for those climbers families, However..
Old 12-18-2006, 08:22 PM   #11
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Re: I feel bad for those climbers families, However..

If people want to 'live on the edge', no one should be surprised when they occasionally die in the process.
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Re: I feel bad for those climbers families, However..
Old 12-18-2006, 09:02 PM   #12
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Re: I feel bad for those climbers families, However..

Quote:
Originally Posted by dex
I believe people who request medical help and evacuations do pay for the services. When I hiked down the Grand Canyon to Phantom Ranch I was told about it.

I some - probably not all - of the costs for this rescue attempt will be charged to the person or their families - I'm not sure about that.
You are correct Dex. In AZ we passed a law to bill the individual for stupidity acts. Every year we have to rescue dumb drivers who go into the washes (around the "Road Flooded" barricades) and get tumbled down stream. Some activities incur mopre risk than others. It is just common sense to pay a bit if you need the help. If some of the costs are assessed for lapse of common sense then perhaps folks would exercise better judgement. Most of the folks airlifted by copter out of the canyon do it because they can't deal with the hike back out or they have a moderate sprain. If a real cardiac patient was dumb enough to need a medivac out then I say let em pay.

So Dex, did you enjoy the Canyon? I love the Salt River Canyon between Globe & Show Low as well.
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Re: I feel bad for those climbers families, However..
Old 12-18-2006, 11:06 PM   #13
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Re: I feel bad for those climbers families, However..

... just for perspective.

The other side of the coin says that people might hesitate to call when they need help because they're worried about the $20k or "pick a number" helicopter/rescue ride out of harm's way.

So, Joe Frosty dies on a mountain and his family misses out on his $2 Mill lifetime earnings, or has to cash in his $50k term life and scrape by. Whatever...

I say bill the suckers, but I just thought I'd add the counterpoint since no one's brought it up.

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Re: I feel bad for those climbers families, However..
Old 12-18-2006, 11:27 PM   #14
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Re: I feel bad for those climbers families, However..

I agree, bill them...

But, doesn't the homeowners policy cover something like this? Not sure, but I had heard about some RV person who had a toad wheel get stuck... wore through the tire, then the wheel was scraping the road.. and started fires for many miles... it took over $1 million to put them all out.. they billed them for the cost... their homeowners and umbrella paid most, but not all of the cost.. but the gvmt was suing them for the rest... this was a LONG time ago, so who knows what it is now...
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Re: I feel bad for those climbers families, However..
Old 12-18-2006, 11:54 PM   #15
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Re: I feel bad for those climbers families, However..

I have mixed feelings as the people who will be billed will be the survivors.

One thought, years ago, was if you packed and used the transponder the climber wouldn't be billed for the rescue. If you didn't use the transponder and lived you would pay for the rescue.

My issue is that they knew the danger but they went any way.
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Re: I feel bad for those climbers families, However..
Old 12-19-2006, 04:44 AM   #16
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Re: I feel bad for those climbers families, However..

Quote:
Originally Posted by crazy connie
So Dex, did you enjoy the Canyon? I love the Salt River Canyon between Globe & Show Low as well.
Connie,
I didn't get to the places you mentioned but the hike down the Grand Canyon is one of the reasons why I REd - so I can enjoy life at my own pace. It was a great experience.
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Re: I feel bad for those climbers families, However..
Old 12-19-2006, 06:48 AM   #17
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Re: I feel bad for those climbers families, However..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Texas Proud
I agree, bill them...

But, doesn't the homeowners policy cover something like this? Not sure, but I had heard about some RV person who had a toad wheel get stuck... wore through the tire, then the wheel was scraping the road.. and started fires for many miles... it took over $1 million to put them all out.. they billed them for the cost... their homeowners and umbrella paid most, but not all of the cost.. but the gvmt was suing them for the rest... this was a LONG time ago, so who knows what it is now...
It happened in Idaho about 15 years ago!!

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Re: I feel bad for those climbers families, However..
Old 12-19-2006, 06:49 AM   #18
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Re: I feel bad for those climbers families, However..

While I sort of agree with newguy, I also think it is a slippery slope to make people pay for emergency relief. Going this way why do we have tax sponsored government services? They are available to ALL of us. We use some of them as we wish.

My 90 yo grandma (fictitious) is staying home all day. Why would she have to pay for road maintenance. Let the guys driving pay for them. We could put tolls every few miles. Why would her property tax pay for the schools? Let the parents pay directly.
Fire protection? Privatize. If you want it pay for the subscription. It's just a kind of insurance after all.
Water rescue?
You want police? Same thing. Show your subscription is in good standing or noone will show up?
Social Security? Unemployment insurance? Privatize too.
Seaports - Airports: I am sure today they are mostly paid by tax dollars and the companies using them or the travelers don't pay.
The citizens that needed out of Lebanon a few weeks back had to pay to be rescued ?!!!?

Everything could become 'A la carte'. And by the way why do we have a government?

By the way he opposite arguments can also be made for everything being provided by the government including building housing, paying for all services with taxes including health care, child care in government nursuries. Someone paid by the town could come repaint our homes on a regular basis. Since we ALL have a home it would be one of the most interesting government service.
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Re: I feel bad for those climbers families, However..
Old 12-19-2006, 07:33 AM   #19
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Re: I feel bad for those climbers families, However..

Its all about taking risks. Sure a guy in a kayak on a lake on a sunny day is one thing but the three guys who made the attempt to climb Mt Hood in december should have had insurance. Period.

Hopefully they did have life insurance for their loved ones!!
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Re: I feel bad for those climbers families, However..
Old 12-19-2006, 07:58 AM   #20
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Re: I feel bad for those climbers families, However..

Quote:
Originally Posted by perinova
While I sort of agree with newguy, I also think it is a slippery slope to make people pay for emergency relief. Going this way why do we have tax sponsored government services? They are available to ALL of us. We use some of them as we wish.
Perinova has a good point. General services should be available to all and funded by all. The benefits to society as a whole benefit each of us individually by assuring a better environment to live in. If search and resue operation are too costly but jurisdictions want to continue them out of humanitarian impulses -- or just so those of us who want to can pursue extreme activities with some sort of safety net -- it seems reasonable to separate out particular activities that will result in stiff users fees. Things like mule team pull-outs from the Grand Canyon, mountain rescues, plucking incompetent windsurfers out of the water seem to fit the bill. (The later wasn't truly a rescue -- the fireboat guys insisted on pulling me out when I got slammed by a 50mph squall line but I could tell things were going to settle down and I was blowing obliquely towards shore anyway )
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