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Re: I hate to say thie but america needs a military draft .
Old 11-16-2006, 08:35 AM   #81
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Re: I hate to say thie but america needs a military draft .

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed_The_Gypsy
Back to the original subject, I notice that John McCain said today that there should be 20,000 more soldiers in Iraq and that to pull out now would be a catastrophe for Iraq.
I was never too enthused about McCain but will admit he's starting to look
pretty good to me.

JG
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Re: I hate to say thie but america needs a military draft .
Old 11-16-2006, 09:21 AM   #82
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Re: I hate to say thie but america needs a military draft .

Partioning Iraq is fraught with huge problems.
- Turkey will not accept an independent Kurdish state--by "not accept" I mean the Turks (a NATO member) will likely launch an incursion in there at some point to quell cross-border support for Kurdish elements in Turkey.
- The Shia portion, the part with most of the oil, will immediately become a virtual extension of Iran. That's the same Iran whose president has pledged to destroy Israel and is working on a nuclear weapon. Having them control an even larger share of the world's oil supply will virtually assure that Europe is even more compliant with Iranian demands in the future.
- The various sections will likely be at war with each other soon over oil and the status of their ethnic kin still living in the other sections.

Yep, I know a unitary Iraq won't be easy, either.

The draft woud be super if we needed to raise a large military of personnel to perform tasks of fairly low complexity. Such an army could engage in slug-fests with similarly low-tech military forces of other nations, and we'd probably have roughy equal number of casualties as they have. This is in marked contrast with the military strategy we've developed over the last 30 years which emphasizes maneuver, precision, and worldwide rapid deployment capability.
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Re: I hate to say thie but america needs a military draft .
Old 11-16-2006, 09:41 AM   #83
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Re: I hate to say thie but america needs a military draft .

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Originally Posted by lets-retire
I hate to say it but this might be the best option. That way none of the big three factions can complain that the others are discriminatory. Although once they got on their collective feet they would probably start fighting among themselves claiming rights to the other's lands.
This just might result in the entire region being engulfed in an Iraqi Civil War, with Iran, Syria, Turkey and non-state terrorists all joining the fray. Partition makes sense if you can contain the Civil War without the presence of 140,000 American Troops (though some would say that there is already a de facto partition of Iraqi); right now, the Civil War, with the presence of our troops, is somewhat contrained from tipping over into real madness and pandamonium. Our invasion of Iraq has got to be the worse foreign and military decision we have ever made as a country. And the simple fact is that Iraq is not better off now than before the invasion! I just read that the Iraqi casualty level is 2-5 percent of its population of 27 million. That's mind boggling! And now we've been in Iraq longer than our entire involvement in WWII, with our casualties increasing every month.

Regarding the draft, I have a "volunteer" son who will likely be going over to Iraq at some point in his military career. I'm not in favor of the draft but I am in favor of some type of required national service for everyone who lives in our country, whether it's in the military, peace corp, americorp, habitat for humanity, resque squad, FEMA, etc. Yeah, people might volunteer to join our military but that does not make it fair for those "paid" volunteers to share the entire burden of our nation's defense, security and well-being. If we had a national service requirement, everyone shares the burden of living in our great nation.

I thought the invasion was a bad idea in the first place and could be justified only as a preemptive security measure if there were in fact weapons of mass destruction. However, now that we are there, we have to complete the mission and leave Iraq in better shape than before we invaded the place, notwithstanding the "quagmire" we face. It's just that I feel our our leaders, civilian and military, have made this a mess, with each passing day. But instead, there is really no accountablity for their mistakes: Wolfowitz becomes President of the World Bank, Tommy Franks writes a book and goes on the lecture tour and makes millions, George Tenet and Paul Bremer get awarded Presidential Medals of Honor, and the only people who appear to really pay for their mistakes are those grunts in the field fighting a war made and planned by these leaders.
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Re: I hate to say thie but america needs a military draft .
Old 11-16-2006, 10:00 AM   #84
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Re: I hate to say thie but america needs a military draft .

Iraq was outlined as a complete country after the"Treaty of Versialle's" division of aggressors into smaller areas in retaliation for being involved in WWI. The biggest drawback was they placed european borders on nomadic tribesmaen, and didn't factor in language/religion/family bonds that really defined the areas population. If Iraq is sundered into 3 smaller countries, I do not see a end to the violence, as the Kurds will still want suni/sheite blood, and the triangle will continue. They do not have a ID able difference that would allow for seperation easily, and border raiding is a national pasttime in the not so distant past with the whole region.
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Re: I hate to say thie but america needs a military draft .
Old 11-16-2006, 10:14 AM   #85
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Re: I hate to say thie but america needs a military draft .

Although I was against the war from the beginning, the situation now gives pause for thought. To some extent, it is a "you broke it, you fix it."

The genie has been let out of the bottle. All the talk about how they will welcome us as "liberators" and "freedom is on the march". How naive! In reality, the removal of a strong, central (i.e. dictatorial) authority has allowed the previously repressed Shiites to gain a lot of leverage, especially with the help of Iran and Syria.

Q who has the biggest army in the region?
A Iran

Q without a US military presence in Iraq, what would happen
A Shia will eventually predominate, and very likely in a state aligned with Iran.

The net result of the invasion is the threat, even liklihood of significantly enhancing the power of Iran.

THAT is the reason the US remains in Iraq--nothing to do with freedom or democracy. IMO, the reason the US went in in the first place was to deny petroleum resources to China in a bid to keep economic dominance.

The rest is ideological spin.

Would have been better to leave it alone. Given that we cannot go back in time, I don't see how a responsible politician, Dem or Repub, can just pull out and leave a power vacuum for Iran to exploit. Rhetoric or not. If that were to happen, the next step would be for those countries to start pressuring the government of Saudi Arabia (which isn't democratic either, btw). Bush really stepped in it on this one, and it will take years and decades to undo.

I don't see how a draft will help one way or another. And I can't say either party allowing it to happen as it would not be politically helpful to them.
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Re: I hate to say thie but america needs a military draft .
Old 11-16-2006, 10:35 AM   #86
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Re: I hate to say thie but america needs a military draft .

Quote:
Don't sacrifice my beloved sons for your political purposes!
BarbaraAnne, I agree with everything you've said about the war -- as mentioned already, I was against it before it started.

With all due respect, however, may I ask you what you've done to oppose it? Have you been marching in anti-war protests? Have you worked to get recruiters out of our schools? Have you written your congressional representatives, sent money to anti-war organizations, or done anything else to actively prevent OTHER people's beloved sons from going?

Whatever your answer to this question, how would it have been different if there HAD been a draft and those sons of yours had been in harm's way?

Again, I mean absolutely no disrespect, but if your sons don't serve, someone else's sons and daughters fight and die in their stead. If we are not working to prevent this catastrophy for ALL of our citizens, then we tacitly agree that sacrificing the less advantaged to save our own family is just dandy with us.

I'm not intersted in seeing your children serve. I'm interested in you and others like you getting out on the front lines of protest and shutting this thing down.

Our leaders can't continue this atrocity unless we stand by and let them.
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Re: I hate to say thie but america needs a military draft .
Old 11-16-2006, 11:02 AM   #87
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Re: I hate to say thie but america needs a military draft .

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Re: I hate to say thie but america needs a military draft .
Old 11-16-2006, 11:53 AM   #88
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Re: I hate to say thie but america needs a military draft .

Bosco,

I think you are correct as to the real reason we invaded Iraq. It's all about oil and who conrtols it. Everthing else is secondary.

2soon
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Re: I hate to say thie but america needs a military draft .
Old 11-16-2006, 12:28 PM   #89
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Re: I hate to say thie but america needs a military draft .

Quote:
Originally Posted by Caroline
BarbaraAnne, I agree with everything you've said about the war -- as mentioned already, I was against it before it started.

With all due respect, however, may I ask you what you've done to oppose it? Have you been marching in anti-war protests? Have you worked to get recruiters out of our schools? Have you written your congressional representatives, sent money to anti-war organizations, or done anything else to actively prevent OTHER people's beloved sons from going?

Whatever your answer to this question, how would it have been different if there HAD been a draft and those sons of yours had been in harm's way?

Again, I mean absolutely no disrespect, but if your sons don't serve, someone else's sons and daughters fight and die in their stead. If we are not working to prevent this catastrophy for ALL of our citizens, then we tacitly agree that sacrificing the less advantaged to save our own family is just dandy with us.

I'm not intersted in seeing your children serve. I'm interested in you and others like you getting out on the front lines of protest and shutting this thing down.

Our leaders can't continue this atrocity unless we stand by and let them.


Caroline,

I appreciate your comments and you are right. I have not done my share in supporting my position. It tears me up to watch the news and learn about the young men and women who have lost their lives or been injured so tragically because of this unjust war. If our youth were called upon to truly defend our country, I know mine would volunteer immediately. But this is about oil and business and I don't believe anyone's child should be a pawn in this game.

What will I do? Other than the choices made on Election Day, I will need to become active and begin writing letters to Congress. It's been a long time since I've been politically active, and suburbia is not the bastion of political activism, but I will begin...That's all I can promise...
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Re: I hate to say thie but america needs a military draft .
Old 11-16-2006, 12:59 PM   #90
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Re: I hate to say thie but america needs a military draft .

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Originally Posted by 2soon2tell
Bosco,

I think you are correct as to the real reason we invaded Iraq. It's all about oil and who conrtols it. Everthing else is secondary.

2soon
Your right our pilots and the British pilots who were constantly being painted by Iraqi SAM radar is of no concern. :
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Re: I hate to say thie but america needs a military draft .
Old 11-16-2006, 03:34 PM   #91
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Re: I hate to say thie but america needs a military draft .

Thank you BarbaraAnne, for taking my comments in the spirit in which they were intended -- I worry sometimes that the lack of tone-of-voice and facial cues can cause my messages to seem more combative than I meant them to be.

Here in my town our group attended a big training on counter-recruitment activities, put together a presentation on the ploys recruiters use to scoop up impressionable kids, sponsored free movies and activities, and the result was a collective yawn of disinterest on the part of school officials, local leaders, etc. That's fine, if they don't want to attend or participate, but it leaves our kids so vulnerable to being misled into joining a fight they can only lose.

I remember that there were HUGE demonstrations before it started, here and across the world -- where are those folks now? I have no children myself, but it just FROSTS me to see young people getting killed, maimed, or permanently psychologically scarred as this war drags on and on. It shouldn't happen to anyone.

Anyway, the best to you and your kids. I really do hope they never have to die for this stupid war. The mood of the country HAS changed -- and a lot sooner than it did with Vietnam. I'm very hopeful that we won't lose 50K before somebody calls a halt here.
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Re: I hate to say thie but america needs a military draft .
Old 11-16-2006, 03:45 PM   #92
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Re: I hate to say thie but america needs a military draft .

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Your right our pilots and the British pilots who were constantly being painted by Iraqi SAM radar is of no concern. :
How would you feel if the UN decided that our Invasion of Iraq was well against international law and the Chinese were going to fly over say the southern half of our airspace and we were told we could NOT FLY??

Look I was no fan of Saddam, but a strongman he was and a buffer between Iran and the rest of the middle east. Now we will not Invade Iran as per what Nords has said and we do not have enough troops and without a draft well it will not happen.

We have spent over 600BILLION dollars in Iraq 600 BILLION!!!!

Almost 3000 american troops are dead for what?? Since when is your son the police of the world?

Man is it windy in these parts, back to my post it is time the President owns up to the grand mistake and move forward. Oops haliburton and those contracts in Iraq. We don't want French or German or Russian companies helping rebuild Iraq.

The american people are getting hosed by the real power in this country and maybe are getting tired, they did throw out a whole lot of republicans.
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Re: I hate to say thie but america needs a military draft .
Old 11-16-2006, 04:53 PM   #93
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Re: I hate to say thie but america needs a military draft .

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Our invasion of Iraq has got to be the worse foreign and military decision we have ever made as a country.
What about the invasion of Canada? Heck, the White House even got burned down as a result of that swift move.
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Re: I hate to say thie but america needs a military draft .
Old 11-17-2006, 09:06 AM   #94
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Re: I hate to say thie but america needs a military draft .

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How would you feel if the UN decided that our Invasion of Iraq was well against international law and the Chinese were going to fly over say the southern half of our airspace and we were told we could NOT FLY??

Almost 3000 american troops are dead for what?? Since when is your son the police of the world?
The major difference is Iraq AGREED to the no fly zone, when they surrendered. My son is too young to be the police of the world. I, however was and spent many more hours in the sand box than I care to recount. I'm still digging desert sand out of places it should be. If the war is ran correctly then hopefully my son will not have to fill the role of policeman. Unfortunately with the Dems gaining power it will be turned around and a bigger mess than we currently have will result. The Dems idea of cutting and running tells those who put their blood sweat and tears in the desert theri service is not apprecieated.
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Re: I hate to say thie but america needs a military draft .
Old 11-17-2006, 11:01 AM   #95
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Re: I hate to say thie but america needs a military draft .

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The major difference is Iraq AGREED to the no fly zone, when they surrendered. My son is too young to be the police of the world. I, however was and spent many more hours in the sand box than I care to recount. I'm still digging desert sand out of places it should be. If the war is ran correctly then hopefully my son will not have to fill the role of policeman. Unfortunately with the Dems gaining power it will be turned around and a bigger mess than we currently have will result. The Dems idea of cutting and running tells those who put their blood sweat and tears in the desert theri service is not apprecieated.
I must say that the fact that we are still playing democrat and republican against each other is well just stupid.

Who cares who we vote for, they all stink, TERM LIMITS!! Anyway Halliburton, and the big business world is running the show and the little guy is getting well screwed.

This war is a mess, and to believe otherwise is foolish. Someone in charge did the war wrong.

Who?Rumsfeld? Bush, Congress? THE military Brass??

The poor reservist who is now doing the dirty work is the loser in this mess, many joined to well get money for college, I know the pitch that was given by the recuiters prior to 9/11, You will learn a skill, we will pay for college YadaYadayada.

That is why I said draft all, yes all who turn 18, then and only then will our politicians think twice before we send our loved ones into battle.

By the way to think a two bit dictator like saddam hussian would be a threat to america is well IDIOTIC!

if we really wanted to win the war we could have leveled Iraq, but then again the oil.
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Re: I hate to say thie but america needs a military draft .
Old 12-03-2006, 08:58 AM   #96
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Re: I hate to say thie but america needs a military draft .

I'm reluctant to pour gasoline on a two-week-old thread, but I found an interesting reference that I'm not going to try to save for the next time this subject crawls out of its grave like a zombie comes up.

I never thought I'd find myself agreeing with Ollie North, but at least he's getting his facts from the DoD and the GAO.

As has been pointed out before here, "And according to the Department of Defense, the overwhelming majority of military personnel killed in action in Afghanistan and Iraq – nearly 74 percent – have been white. Hispanic/Latino deaths make up about 11.5 percent; blacks account for less than 10 percent. Yet, the overall U.S. population of more than 300 million is 14 percent Hispanic and 12 percent black."

According to the GAO, "at least half of today’s youth between the ages of 16 and 21 are not qualified to serve in the military because they fail to meet the military’s entry standards for education, aptitude, health, moral character or other requirements."

"In the late 1960’s President Lyndon Johnson implemented what he called 'Project One Hundred Thousand,' – a program that forced the military to accept draftees who would otherwise have been rejected. That program was a disaster and a modern draft would be as well."
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Re: I hate to say thie but america needs a military draft .
Old 12-03-2006, 02:58 PM   #97
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Re: I hate to say thie but america needs a military draft .

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nords
I'm reluctant to pour gasoline on a two-week-old thread, but I found an interesting reference that I'm not going to try to save for the next time this subject crawls out of its grave like a zombie comes up.

I never thought I'd find myself agreeing with Ollie North, but at least he's getting his facts from the DoD and the GAO.

As has been pointed out before here, "And according to the Department of Defense, the overwhelming majority of military personnel killed in action in Afghanistan and Iraq – nearly 74 percent – have been white. Hispanic/Latino deaths make up about 11.5 percent; blacks account for less than 10 percent. Yet, the overall U.S. population of more than 300 million is 14 percent Hispanic and 12 percent black."

According to the GAO, "at least half of today’s youth between the ages of 16 and 21 are not qualified to serve in the military because they fail to meet the military’s entry standards for education, aptitude, health, moral character or other requirements."

"In the late 1960’s President Lyndon Johnson implemented what he called 'Project One Hundred Thousand,' – a program that forced the military to accept draftees who would otherwise have been rejected. That program was a disaster and a modern draft would be as well."

My real reasoning about the draft has to do with Numbers.

If we really want the Iranians and everyone else on the planet understand that when we put 5 million men in uniform we mean business. I get the feeling That the Iranians do not believe us.

The North Koreans know we do not have the numbers to attack so they build their nukes.

Russia China Do Not Care if the world goes bonkers, most of their people are well dirt poor, and if the $hit hits the fan I get the feeling they say so be it america will suffer like the rest of us.

Black young men in Newark, the high school I will be done from in less than 3 weeks have ZERO joining so far this year. They want no part of the war right now. 1500 students.

Even the recuiters have not stopped by this year and that is wild, before the war in 2001 even before 9/11 we had the army and marines at the building once a month.

I wonder what is going on? The district has NOT banned them.
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Re: I hate to say thie but america needs a military draft .
Old 12-03-2006, 04:47 PM   #98
 
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Re: I hate to say thie but america needs a military draft .

My reasons for wanting a no deferment of any kind draft is to keep foriegn policy decisions in the hands of the American people rather than a cowboy from Texas. - If you look at the Military as a separate unit, it may not make sense to have a draft, but it's not. Currently the majority of American people could not care a less about Iraq, because there is no sacrifice. All we have to do is "keep shopping". There was even a Tax deferment for this war! So, the American people not only don't have to pay for the war with their children, they can pass on the monetary amount to future generations.

With a no- deferment draft these mindless 'swagger wars' probably would not start and for sure would end sooner! -
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Re: I hate to say thie but america needs a military draft .
Old 12-03-2006, 06:00 PM   #99
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Re: I hate to say thie but america needs a military draft .

A thought for newguy: if Cut-Throat is right that universal conscription would make the US more reluctant to use military force, then the US military would actually become a less-feared force, so it would be counerproductive to your aim.

Not convinced myself that universal conscription would have Cut-Throat's intended effect, however.
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Re: I hate to say thie but america needs a military draft .
Old 12-03-2006, 08:27 PM   #100
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Re: I hate to say thie but america needs a military draft .

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A thought for newguy: if Cut-Throat is right that universal conscription would make the US more reluctant to use military force, then the US military would actually become a less-feared force, so it would be counerproductive to your aim.

Not convinced myself that universal conscription would have Cut-Throat's intended effect, however.

I do not believe there really would be any hesitation to use a military full of draftees, IF the war was fought for a reason. The problem with the Iraqi mess is that the info was wrong. I must say after 9/11 Every last dem I talked to was ready to get a gun and hunt down bin laden alzwahiri and all the other animals that went thru the afgan camps, But then we decided Oops I mean mr Bush decided that a jerk like saddam was more important and quit frankly was wrong.
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