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I just saw United Flight 93...
Old 04-30-2006, 09:37 PM   #1
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I just saw United Flight 93...

I just saw United Flight 93 and it was a very powerful, intense and emotional film for me. It really got me thinking on several levels.

I am one who does not take popular media too seriously - only for its entertainment value. But as I sat there and watched the movie I was surprised at the emotions I was feeling. Although we all know what happened but, seeing the average person; people we have all seen when flying and knowing what will happen took this movie out of the norm. Also, there were no recognizable faces - they were all new. It was shot in a documentary style without any commentary.

What would I have done?
Who whould I have called?
Is this just a movie that resonates with me/us because it happened here; or that I can identify with middle class Americans or that I knew a NYC fireman who died at the World Trade Center?
I thought about the nature of heroism?
Is it that I am of a certain age and I have a graspe of understanding of the pain caused by the loss of life?
We read about the deaths in Iraq and other places in the world on a daily basis. Are those deaths any less tragic? Are the 40,000 killed each year on our USA highways less tragic?

I see that "RV" lead in the box office this weekend. What does this say about the USA? This is a bit ironic since I plan to travel in an RV.
http://www.cnn.com/2006/SHOWBIZ/Movi....ap/index.html
It was a Sunday night when I saw the movie and there weren't many people in the theatre. The movie theatre business is struggeling. If there is one reason for being for the movie business it would be the communal aspect of seeing something with others. Did others see this movie in a crowded theatre? If so, what was your experince?

So, what does this all have to do with RE? I guess that we should appreciate the opportunies we have and have had in the USA and if we were on United Flight 93 how much would we be worrying about how much we need to RE?

I guess there will be other movies about 9/11, but I do not believe there will be many; maybe one or two about what happened at the World Trade Center.

That's enough for a Sunday night.
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Re: I just saw United Flight 93...
Old 04-30-2006, 11:55 PM   #2
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Re: I just saw United Flight 93...

I'm looking forward to seeing this movie later this week.* Ironically, one of the few times I had a letter published in the WSJ was following 9/11.* My letter recognized the admirable, and too-rare (publicized) exhibition of self defense by those heros on Flight 93.* On that terrible day there was one group of Americans who defeated those radical Islamist savages ... and that was a group of American civilians.* Not law enforcement, nor any other governmental agency ... civilians.

I thought then, and I continue to believe that our country was made great by people who took responsibility for their own lives, their families, their communities, and their country.* They didn't wait for someone else to protect them, or make their deciisons.

In that same spirit, I would include those on this board who take responsbility for their own family's financial future.* It takes a certain courage, and wisdom, to realize that no one else is resonsible for us ... we are responsible.*

Perhaps sounds a bit too philosophic, but I do see the parallels.* And, I think that we will continue needing responsible folks who will do what is necessary in the future.

It is a blessing that the heros of Flight 93 have been recognized.* One of most poignant self-defense stories ever.* We should remember it, next time someone tells us to just "dial 911".
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Re: I just saw United Flight 93...
Old 05-01-2006, 12:09 AM   #3
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Re: I just saw United Flight 93...

Quote:
It is a blessing that the heros of Flight 93 have been recognized. One of most poignant self-defense stories ever. We should remember it, next time someone tells us to just "dial 911".
Unfortunately in most cases THE LAW itself requires us to NOT call 911 and let "them" handle it. You try you take responsibility for something, be the "hero", and you set yoursef up for big time "civil and criminal liability" as it says on the matress tag.

A lot of the social ethos will have to change before people feel comfortable doing the right thing without worrying about how it can come back to bite them
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Re: I just saw United Flight 93...
Old 05-01-2006, 08:55 AM   #4
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Re: I just saw United Flight 93...

Razztazz--Your fist line is confusing.* You say the law requires people to not call 911, but let "them" (presumable law enforcement) handle it.* How can they handle it if you don't call?

Working in the "911 industries" I routinely advise people to call 911.* Only because I know the law and what is required to defend oneself.* Everyone has the right to self defense, in my state.* Most people are not educated enough or willing to put in the time to educate themselves about the law to know the requirements.* If people would educate themselves the criminal and civil liability would be diminished.*

Not to mention I think many people do not have the stomach or willingness to complete the job once they fight back.* This can have dire consequences if the bad guy fights back.* Imagine you just fought with a bad guy, who initially only wanted your TV.* Now he's angry, injured and probably meaner than the you.* Police don't wear armor, guns, batons, pepper spray, or tasers because they are comfortable.* The victim would probably been better off just going along and not fighting.

I think that's what made the people on flight 93 heroes, they fought back knowing they would probably die. The best case they defeat the terrorists and land the plane safely. Worst case they get a beat down and the plane still crashes into the designated target. Since the terrorists had control of the cockpit and the odds of the former occurring was remote. The odds of the latter was not likely either because of the number of terrorists when compared to the number of passengers. The odds of crashing before hitting the target had the greatest probability. So they fought back knowing, I believe, that they were going to die, but did not want to be used to kill many uninvolved people.
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Re: I just saw United Flight 93...
Old 05-01-2006, 11:31 AM   #5
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Re: I just saw United Flight 93...

Quote:
Razztazz--Your fist line is confusing. You say the law requires people to not call 911, but let "them" (presumable law enforcement) handle it. How can they handle it if you don't call?
Sorry, YOU are correct. That was a poor edit on my part. I started to say the law requires or encourages us NOT to defend ourselves but to call 911" or something like that. I was pissed when I typed that. (In the American sense of the word, not the Canadian)


You are correct on all counts of course except I dont know why there should be a requirement for people to know too much "law" to defend themslves. That is exactly the kind of thinking that makes the average American's reactions to these things so docile. If I do something I can get sued by the bad guy. OR he will sue the airline/store/apartment complex andf THEY will sue me because I didnt shut up and stay out. OR I might be arrested for contributing to a disturbance/riot/mayem/ if I do something.

Like you said about people not willing to follow through on the attack. That MIGHT LEGALLY end up being construed as some BS about excessive force. I cannot outwrestle a 25 yr old buglar but you can bet some one will be allowed to have a different opinion. I "Shoulda done this or shoulda done that"

And its not just a matter of "defending one's self". I might not help YOU if I saw you needed help (My observation which might night hold up to the law) without thiking about my liability and trying to call 911 first.

Also, what if I get hurt? Go broke from medical expences or have to SUE somebody for the bucks to pay off the Doctor? Or sue YOU because it was YOU I was trying to help? This of course is a side issue but can be considered part of an "invisble hand" that influences these things

The bad guys know this. The animals on those planes KNEW that Americans would sit still and await a mildly uncomfortabe weekend in Havana or wherever they were being hijacked to and let "The Authorities" do something.

In a sense too much respect for authority and not enough contempt for people trying to get away with something.

Too bad it has to reach the point of being convinced you're gonna die before doing something looks like a feasable course of action.
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Re: I just saw United Flight 93...
Old 05-01-2006, 11:38 AM   #6
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Re: I just saw United Flight 93...

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Originally Posted by lets-retire
So they fought back knowing, I believe, that they were going to die, but did not want to be used to kill many uninvolved people.
Considering that most of them had been receiving cell-phone calls about the WTC towers, I'd say they knew what was going to happen. "Knowing" their fate was the only thing that turned a group of unfit strangers into an assault team.

I was watching a PBS special last night about the Battle of Antietam. It was the usual recitation of glorified slaughter but one historian made an interesting comment. When you lined up shoulder-to-shoulder to march into the rifle fire, it was quite likely that you were between a brother and a cousin-- or maybe even next to your father. No sane sentient marches steadfastly into a hail of killing crossfire just because a superior officer says so, but when your alternatives are to abandon your family or to shame yourself by running-- it seems much simpler to just keep marching.

I really object to having my emotions manipulated by the media. *I wouldn't watch United Flight 93 in a movie theater any more than I'd watch "Blackhawk Down". *And if it brought tears to the eyes of my nephew the Army Ranger then I'm probably not going to watch it anyway. *Maybe the DVD would make it to our house someday but there are way too many other things on my list and too many other movies that I haven't seen yet.
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Re: I just saw United Flight 93...
Old 05-01-2006, 11:40 AM   #7
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Re: I just saw United Flight 93...

I think 9/11 changed everything. *Before that date, if someone stood up and said they were hijacking the plane, you would figure, ok just lay low, spend a few days in Cuba or Palestine, and get out of this alive. *Today, the passengers would assault anyone who tried to take over a plane, with or without a weapon. *Why not? *You gonna die anyway! *I don't think I can watch this movie, though. *Too sad and I don't like the ending. *
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Re: I just saw United Flight 93...
Old 05-01-2006, 11:56 AM   #8
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Re: I just saw United Flight 93...

I'd like to see the movie but just the parts that concern the Northeast Air Defense Sector. I was stationd there for 6.5 yrs but left before 9/11. I'd only want to watch it the way a real detective or DA might watch an episode of Law & Order. To check out how much is real and well-done and how much is "Hollywoodized.

When I was an excercise designer there (designed war games for the General's Battle staff and ops crews) I submited on several ocassions sceanarios where a plane was hijacked and the hijackers knew how to fly it. The only thing historcally that gave The Establishment anything to work with was the fact that hjackers needed the pilot/crew, and that bought time.

I never used Moslems in those days tho. I usually used a deranged ailrine pilot who flunked out or a drummed-out AF pilot. Anybody who could reasonably fly it long enough to crash it into something

The Higher Ups always canned the idea saying a pilot would NEVER DO something like that and the plane's real pilot would always be able to diffuse the situation. ALWAYS. So we never ran more than the usual scramble 2 fighters .. escort airliner to Souteast Air Defense sector .... land in Havana. God forbid we think ouside the box.
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Re: I just saw United Flight 93...
Old 05-01-2006, 12:23 PM   #9
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Re: I just saw United Flight 93...

Just curious - why land in Havana?
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Re: I just saw United Flight 93...
Old 05-01-2006, 12:34 PM   #10
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Re: I just saw United Flight 93...

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Originally Posted by justin
Just curious - why land in Havana?
Justin, your age is showing. [Edit: ...and so is mine. :P. See the correction below.]

In the 60's & 70's nutjobs frequently hijacked commercial flights and forced the crew to fly them to Cuba. I sat with my family in our on-base house at McCoy AFB (Orlando, FL) in 1972 and listened to the sounds of the FBI shooting out the tires of a hijacked Eeastern Airlines 727 one night. Lucky for all involved the hijacker gave up after several hours standoff and never got to see Havana.

[Correction: "November 10. Three...successfully hijack a DC-9 from Birmingham to Cuba with $10 million and 10 parachutes; they are still fugitives; the copilot is wounded; two are sentenced in Cuba to 20 years, one to 15 years; they threaten to crash the plane into the Oak Ridge nuclear installation; at McCoy Air Force Base, Orlando, the FBI shoots out the tires; the plane finally lands on a foam-covered runway in Havana""
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Re: I just saw United Flight 93...
Old 05-01-2006, 03:57 PM   #11
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Re: I just saw United Flight 93...

Does anyone have a link to a photograph showing the entirity of the plane wreakage as well as evidence of blood from some 200 people? All i remember seeing on TV 9/11 was a relatively small hole given what we were told happened (that a large airliner hit the ground), no plane skid marks, not much plane parts to speak of (it looked mostly like just some plane garbage dumped in a hole), and no blood.
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Re: I just saw United Flight 93...
Old 05-01-2006, 04:22 PM   #12
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Re: I just saw United Flight 93...

Azanon,

What is the reason for your question? I don't see it keeping with the context of what has been discussed in the thread. The law of averages says some people on the forum lost close friends or relatives on 9/11, and I would hope we could avoid getting into gory details that would cause anyone here any more pain than they've already suffered.

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Re: I just saw United Flight 93...
Old 05-01-2006, 05:46 PM   #13
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Re: I just saw United Flight 93...

I think azanon is refering to a video suggesting that the 911 event was a Bush conspiracy.

Someone posted a link to that video in another thread.
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Re: I just saw United Flight 93...
Old 05-01-2006, 06:34 PM   #14
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Re: I just saw United Flight 93...

911 was a major event in US History, America had never been attacked on this scale.

http://www.eyewitnesstohistory.com/blitz.htm

England, to this day, still does not like or trust Germany.

Imagine multiple 911's for almost 60 days, that is why they call us stubborn Brits.
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Re: I just saw United Flight 93...
Old 05-01-2006, 07:32 PM   #15
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Re: I just saw United Flight 93...

a 2nd cousin of mine lost her husband's brother at world trade center. the october past 9/11, when mom could still travel, i took her into the city to see the smoldering remains. we got within two blocks. the debris rose 7 stories high and smoked like it had been hit yesterday.

as sad as it was to see wtc, the most moving part of our day were all the make-shift memorials in the subway stations & on the streets. pictures, descriptions, pleas, flowers, candles burning, people reading, staring, walking in silence, eyes meeting in reverence.

it was a very different city.
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Re: I just saw United Flight 93...
Old 05-01-2006, 08:01 PM   #16
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Re: I just saw United Flight 93...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maximillion
England, to this day, still does not like or trust Germany.
Well, I guess you brits got even and then some... Dresden, the Berlin raids, and others...

Some people in Dresden still think that some of the Allied brass should have beeen tried as war criminals.

Hate lasts a long time...
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Re: I just saw United Flight 93...
Old 05-01-2006, 08:41 PM   #17
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Re: I just saw United Flight 93...

Azanon,

The damned thing hit the ground straight down into a swamp at unbelievably high speed. Have you have seen steel automobiles that were reduced to crushed beer cans at 1/20 the velocity? In 1968 or so, I saw an XK-E that was crushed to the size of a Fiat 600 that was hit a caddy head-on at only highway speeds, that was placed with a warning sign on a flat-bed trailer in front of HQ company at a place we both know well .

Flight 93 was a big aluminum can that impacted the ground at well above the speed of sound. You wanted skid marks On what, the clouds Even modest values of MV^2 are not kind to the works of man. Perhaps you should have stayed awake in Vehicles Lab?

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Re: I just saw United Flight 93...
Old 05-01-2006, 08:59 PM   #18
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Re: I just saw United Flight 93...

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The damned thing hit the ground straight down into a swamp
Uh oh. His is news to me. or are they tryng to start a new memory for everybody? Up till now they've been telling us it crashed in a "field". Now it's a "Swamp"
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Re: I just saw United Flight 93...
Old 05-01-2006, 09:05 PM   #19
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Re: I just saw United Flight 93...

I will not be watching 'United Flight 93'. I object to the media trivializing or exploiting such things, no matter how "good" the movie. I also do not watch war movies for the same reason. It is not and should not be entertainment.

razztazz,

mox nix. At 1200 mph, there ain't no such thing as a soft landing.
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Re: I just saw United Flight 93...
Old 05-01-2006, 09:17 PM   #20
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Re: I just saw United Flight 93...

Quote:
Originally Posted by razztazz
Uh oh. His is news to me. or are they tryng to start a new memory for everybody? Up till now they've been telling us it crashed in a "field". Now it's a "Swamp"
There was a case in Pennsylvania in the '80's, I believe, where a 737 dove straight down into the ground at full speed. In an article I read about it, the NTSB investigators' reaction when they got to the crash site was, "Where's the plane??" That was also firm ground, not swamp.

If I were the suspicious type, I would be wondering about the secondary debris fields, not the primary site.

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