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Old 06-27-2010, 04:30 PM   #221
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I work their butts off. I am grading their midterms right now. But my product is not "knowledge" as such. Knowledge is cheap, education is expensive. Education , it has been said , is "what is left after everything you learn has been forgotten".
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Spoken like a true academic.

I agree with his statement.... I have told my son something similar... one time he was telling me he has straight 'As'.... I said... but you can not TELL me what you learned... so to me it is worthless... IF you can not explain to someone else what you learned (and my son said he could not)... then you really did not learn anything no matter what grade you made...

Teaching someone how to solve problems is difficult... I see it all the time... trained monkeys.... they know what to do IF they are told... but present them with something that is similar... that if they used their brain and also had the knowledge of what they learned it would be simple... but for some reason they can not figure it out... well, again, no knowledge....

Opps... I was using 'knowledge' like Emeritus used 'education'... but I think you get the drift...
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Old 06-28-2010, 08:47 AM   #222
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I agree with his statement.... I have told my son something similar... one time he was telling me he has straight 'As'.... I said... but you can not TELL me what you learned... so to me it is worthless... IF you can not explain to someone else what you learned (and my son said he could not)... then you really did not learn anything no matter what grade you made...

Teaching someone how to solve problems is difficult... I see it all the time... trained monkeys.... they know what to do IF they are told... but present them with something that is similar... that if they used their brain and also had the knowledge of what they learned it would be simple... but for some reason they can not figure it out... well, again, no knowledge....

Opps... I was using 'knowledge' like Emeritus used 'education'... but I think you get the drift...

Education is what happens when kids fresh out of college, full of knowledge meet the real world. Most of them figure out the difference, but, alas, some never do...
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Old 06-28-2010, 09:01 AM   #223
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Education is what happens when kids fresh out of college, full of knowledge meet the real world. Most of them figure out the difference, but, alas, some never do...
IMHO this is much closer to "experience" .
As Justice Holmes said

The life of the law has not been logic; it has been experience...The law embodies the story of a nation's development through many centuries, and it cannot be dealt with as if it contained only the axioms and corollaries of a book of mathematics.

In my work I have found fields in which experience is absolutely vital and others in which it is treacherous. Captain Smith of the TITANIC had vast experience, which led him at full speed into an iceberg.

When I clerked, my judge had been trying cases for 30 years. He knew more aobut liars and prevaricators and perjury than anyone I ever met.
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Old 06-28-2010, 09:31 AM   #224
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I love dropping "f*ck you" comments like that on the manufacturer's regional representative. Dealers are agents of the manufacturer. When they say F*ck you to a manufacturer's customer , The manufacturer loves to hear about it.
Wow!!
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Old 06-28-2010, 09:33 AM   #225
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Yes it's screwing the manufacturer's customer. As GM says
Looking for a new dealer? You've come to the right place!

First, thank you for being our customer. The ongoing reinvention of GM involves the consolidation of our Dealer network. This means that a number of our valued customers will need to locate a new dealer for service or sales. We continue to have a strong Dealer network in place. They are open and staffed by GM-trained Goodwrench experts with Genuine GM parts on hand and are best equipped to service your vehicle.
GM Dealer Availability - Dealer & Service Information | General Motors

Manufacturer's make assurances to customers that they will be treated properly by dealers anywhere in the country

Where do I go for repairs?
Repairs can be handled conveniently though any GM dealership or licensed repair facility in the United States and Canada.

So until your service manager has the balls to say "he is not my customer" to the manufacturer he should simply sit down and do the job he is paid for.
You know nothing about how a dealership works, yet cling to your internal world of how you think a dealership works.......amazing...... How about listening to a couple of us who actually WORKED in that industry, just a thought..........
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Old 06-28-2010, 09:37 AM   #226
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But my product is not "knowledge" as such. Knowledge is cheap, education is expensive. Education , it has been said , is "what is left after everything you learn has been forgotten".
I think we ALL KNOW why education is expensive, and it has nothing to do with the brick and mortar of the universities.........it's firmly in the "other" category.........
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Old 06-28-2010, 09:40 AM   #227
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But we have so much fun dropping the small claim court filing on the manufacturer's regional representative.
When was the last time you did that?
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Old 06-28-2010, 09:45 AM   #228
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"Here's a news flash: Service departments don't really LIKE manufacturer's warranties.........typically the money the dealer gets to do warranty work contains the thinnest margins in the entire service department, save for loss-leader oil changes........"
Wow, you quoted me, I am truly honored......... However, that statement was me providing internal insight on how the business is really run. If you don't like that business model, well there's not much you can do about it.

How about if I "dumb it down" a little? The service department of your local GM dealer makes MORE money on service work done on a car WITHOUT a GM warranty than one that has one. So, they can charge MORE to rebuild a transmission on a non-warranteed repair than being held to STRICT Chilton manual guides for GM warranty work. But, I bet you already knew all that, right? Well, maybe not..........
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Old 06-28-2010, 10:25 AM   #229
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When was the last time you did that?
I helped a student file one last year.

It had an immediate and gratifying response.
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Old 06-28-2010, 10:38 AM   #230
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Few years back I wrote out a check for a new Altima and shortly after the sales manager came out and said a mistake was made and the vehicle had a protective type coating that was a $700 additional charge and they could take it off if I didn't want it. I said the car was sold as is and I wanted to talk to the dearlership owner, NOW. The guy couldn't back down fast enough. I despise car salesmen in general.
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Old 06-28-2010, 10:41 AM   #231
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Wow, you quoted me, I am truly honored......... However, that statement was me providing internal insight on how the business is really run. If you don't like that business model, well there's not much you can do about it.

How about if I "dumb it down" a little? The service department of your local GM dealer makes MORE money on service work done on a car WITHOUT a GM warranty than one that has one. So, they can charge MORE to rebuild a transmission on a non-warranteed repair than being held to STRICT Chilton manual guides for GM warranty work. But, I bet you already knew all that, right? Well, maybe not..........
You don't need to dumb it down. I'm well aware that non warranty work is much more lucrative. I am perhaps the only lawyer in the USA who has been a full professor in both a Consumer Economics program and an Engineering school. I was in law school in D.C. working with the folks who wrote the Magnuson-Moss warranty act. It was written with auto dealers specifically in mind. Many have a "quasi-monopoly" in an area and therefore have to be closely regulated.

The structure of the act makes the manufacturer strictly liable for the failures of the dealer. That is why the dealer is not an"independent" operator. If the manufacturer in the warranty promises service by any dealer, and the dealer craps on the consumer because the consumer isn't "their" customer, the manufacturer is liable for damages plus attorneys fees. If we find a pattern or practice which the manufacturer tolerated, it gets even worse for them
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Old 06-28-2010, 10:44 AM   #232
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I am perhaps the only lawyer in the USA who has been a full professor in both a Consumer Economics program and an Engineering school.
Is there nothing you have not done?
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Old 06-28-2010, 10:49 AM   #233
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Is there nothing you have not done?
Bet he hasn't read/comprehended "How to Win Friends and Influence People".

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Old 06-28-2010, 10:57 AM   #234
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Become a troll, oh yea, he has done that too!
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Old 06-28-2010, 10:59 AM   #235
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You know nothing about how a dealership works, yet cling to your internal world of how you think a dealership works.......amazing...... How about listening to a couple of us who actually WORKED in that industry, just a thought..........
I've interviewed lots of lawbreakers in my time, from murderers to corporate executives. I study the internal incentives in firms to violate the law. Many industries operate in regular violation of the law and they get used to it until the violation becomes "normal". But that does not make it legal. Ive brought companies back into legal compliance after litigation or a disaster. I helped build buildings and inspected them. Ive trained doctors how to avoid malpractice litigation. Ive gone with a fine tooth comb through medical device manufacturers subject to the FDA.. I've interviewed pilots about autopilot design. I've even made my University comply with the law.

I know precisely what the law is that applies to auto dealerships and warranty obligations. If your claim is simply that their are un-hung scoundrels out there in dealerships I will certianly agree. All kinds of lawbreakers operate in dark sleazy corners and don't publish what they do. If a dealership had the cojones to post a sign describing how they treat "non customers" in accordance with some of the statements here I will be very surprised.
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Old 06-28-2010, 11:06 AM   #236
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Is there nothing you have not done?
This can't possibly be ER for him... if you add up all his years of experience in Consumer Protection, Engineering, Law, Education, Aviation, Food Science, Construction, Petroleum Safety, Medicine, Helath Services, Environmental Sciences, Automotive Supply Chain Management, Bakery Science, Pro-bono legal work, (not to mention his PhD from Dale Carnegie), etc. he has to be at least 150 years old and has already worked more years than any three of us put together...
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Old 06-28-2010, 11:11 AM   #237
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Is there nothing you have not done?
I never learned to spell properly and I have lousy handwriting. I am severely acrophobic and clumsy . I could never do skydiving, riding in a helicopter, anything dealing with music or dance or other art, sport, or areas requiring physical coordination. I've never give an professional lecture or consulted in Alaska, Hawaii, Iowa, Maine, South Carolina, Arkansas or Mississippi.
Never been an Employee of Megacorp.
I am a terrible subordinate and keep a horribly messy office.

One of the advantages of a career as an academic is that you can get exposed to a very wide variety of problems all over the world.
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Old 06-28-2010, 11:34 AM   #238
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This can't possibly be ER for him... if you add up all his years of experience in Consumer Protection, Engineering, Law, Education, Aviation, Food Science, Construction, Petroleum Safety, Medicine, Helath Services, Environmental Sciences, Automotive Supply Chain Management, Bakery Science, Pro-bono legal work, (not to mention his PhD from Dale Carnegie), etc. he has to be at least 150 years old and has already worked more years than any three of us put together...
It's a busy life. My field is law and technology. Every one of the areas you describe has a legal component, which is what I work on. I'm grading papers on emergency regulation of volcanic ash and the effect on engines, I have to meet my guest speaker from the FDA on drug safety regulation. I just submitted an abstract on the federal rules of evidence as applied to construction arson, and I'm preparing a lecture on product liability with a lawyer from a major European auto drive shaft manufacturer. I'm reviewing the class action on defective Chinese drywall for another paper, and comparing it to food safety regulation in China. None of these as such make my analysis better than anyone else's. Analysis stands on its own.

I'm always interested in other people's experiences. It teaches me a lot.
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Old 06-28-2010, 11:49 AM   #239
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I never learned to spell properly and I have lousy handwriting. I am severely acrophobic and clumsy . I could never do skydiving, riding in a helicopter, anything dealing with music or dance or other art, sport, or areas requiring physical coordination. I've never give an professional lecture or consulted in Alaska, Hawaii, Iowa, Maine, South Carolina, Arkansas or Mississippi.
Never been an Employee of Megacorp.
I am a terrible subordinate and keep a horribly messy office.

One of the advantages of a career as an academic is that you can get exposed to a very wide variety of problems all over the world.

Hey... I kind of like what you write... even though others do not...

I just don't have the same belief system that there are a lot of crooks out there... I think most are just honest people trying to do an honest job... and then someone writes a law saying you are doing it all wrong...

But we do have enough dishonest people in car dealerships which is why they get a bad rap... if the industry was more on the up and up, their rating would not be so bad...

Remember the Sears problem where they were selling stuff people did not need in order to get their sales goals I would think this happens a lot in car dealerships also...
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Old 06-28-2010, 11:54 AM   #240
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Interesting to me that people are coming to the defense of car dealers in this case - thought they were pretty universally reviled.
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