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Old 07-01-2010, 02:50 PM   #301
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One other aspect to the car sale.

If it is the last Saturday of the month at 5:30 pm, you might get the benefit of the volume clip levels that the dealership is getting. It might be possible to get your car at a loss to the dealership if the result of getting to the next discount level is more than their loss on your deal.

Granted this is an unusual situation, but I like buying then just in case!
Chrysler used to do this all the time, they had a "step-up" program on minivan sales. If you sold 40 minivans, they gave the dealer $1500 dealer cash per van. If they only hit 39, you got $1000 dealer cash per van. So, that last sale was worth a lot of money to the dealer, and they would do anything to get it.
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Old 07-01-2010, 04:37 PM   #302
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The "authority" you are talking about is an illusion. The manager signed a piece of paper, so what. The salesman can not negotiate any more or less than he could before. He has a lower limit of what the dealership has decided is reasonable to sell the car at, the same as before. If he goes outside that range he loses his job, whereas before the sales manager simply wouldn't sign the contract. So just like before you wasted time to get a signature on a sheet of paper, any deal that is "close" to the bottom limit will be passed through the manager.
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And in which state are you licensed to practice law? In the states where I am licensed, I am now dealing with a person who can make a deal. I deal I can enforce. They know it, I know it. If the salesperson refuses to make the deal, I just walk. Its much simpler
I think the dude has the better of this argument. Agents are given the "authority to negotiate" all the time with clear limits on what they can agree to. Getting a salesman to get a written "authority" from the owner sounds like just plain silliness.
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Old 07-01-2010, 06:25 PM   #303
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If I were the manager I'd sign the sheet then tell the salesman to pass any offer through me before he signed the contract or it was his job. OOPS, there goes his ability to make the sale. .
With all due respect, and frankly with my personal thank for anyone who serves as a police officer, what you are describing here is not the law, if you mean that any deal made by the salesman is not valid unless he "signs" it is false. . It is valid whatever the dealer says to the salesman. The dealer has clothed the salesman with apparent authority sufficient to satisfy the statute of frauds. The signature of the dealer is all that is required. Lots of cases on this point. Just think of the authority given to an auctioneer to sell property. It doesn't specify price it specifies authority. If there is a reserve price, that is on the document and disclosed.

If the manager is instructing the salesman to act in bad faith and not make a deal despite purporting to negotiate, it is a violation of the regulatory law that controls dealer licenses, which requires commercial good faith. The Dealer and both individuals can lose their licenses and it is a violation of the consumer protection act, which has substantial civil penalties. It is also "moral turpitude" of the type that disqualifies them from any kind of state occupational license

If you are suggesting that the dealer is instructing the sale person to give the appearance of concluding a deal while actually not making the deal, that is of course criminal fraud.

If you are suggesting that they would lie under oath when questioned , then they are simply felons of the sort I'm sure you dealt with. The felony is perjury.

So if they are willing to commit a crime and perjury, why would I want to do business with them anyway? If they are not, the salesman negotiates and we may make a deal or we may not, no problem.

Again, thank you for your service.
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Old 07-01-2010, 06:30 PM   #304
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I think the dude has the better of this argument. Agents are given the "authority to negotiate" all the time with clear limits on what they can agree to. Getting a salesman to get a written "authority" from the owner sounds like just plain silliness.
Unless any limit on authority is disclosed to the purchaser, a good faith purchaser can deal with the agent as a principal

Restatement of Agency (Second)§ 27: "Except for the execution of instruments under seal or for the conduct of transactions required by statute to be authorized in a particular way, apparent authority to do an act is created as to a third person by written or spoken words or any other conduct of the principal which, reasonably interpreted, causes the third person to believe that the principal consents to have the act done on his behalf by the person purporting to act for him."
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Old 07-01-2010, 08:06 PM   #305
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Or y'all could save a bunch of trouble and do what I do and buy your cars out of the newspaper in the $5k or less category, or what we lovingly refer to as our POS fleet series. I'm just saying....
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Old 07-01-2010, 08:20 PM   #306
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Or y'all could save a bunch of trouble and do what I do and buy your cars out of the newspaper in the $5k or less category, or what we lovingly refer to as our POS fleet series. I'm just saying....
Sorry, I worked an extra year or two so I wouldn't have to worry about driving through the middle of nowhere in a POS.
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Old 07-01-2010, 09:09 PM   #307
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Sorry, I worked an extra year or two so I wouldn't have to worry about driving through the middle of nowhere in a POS.
300+ posts and still going strong.

An awful lot of people seem willing, even enthused, to endure an awful lot of pain, deception, mutual hostility, and thousands of extra dollars of depreciation to get through what appears to be a broke process... just to have reliable transportation?

I've only bought one brand-new car in nearly 30 years of ownership-- and that's the only one that's left me on the side of the road.

There's nothing on this thread that makes me want to grab my spouse and head to the nearest car dealer to try out my newfound negotiating skills. But it makes buying used through Craigslist seem a lot easier.
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Old 07-01-2010, 09:19 PM   #308
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300+ posts and still going strong.

An awful lot of people seem willing, even enthused, to endure an awful lot of pain, deception, mutual hostility, and thousands of extra dollars of depreciation to get through what appears to be a broke process... just to have reliable transportation?

I've only bought one brand-new car in nearly 30 years of ownership-- and that's the only one that's left me on the side of the road.

There's nothing on this thread that makes me want to grab my spouse and head to the nearest car dealer to try out my newfound negotiating skills. But it makes buying used through Craigslist seem a lot easier.
I fully agree the typical new-car purchasing experience is nuts and I was not trying to defend it. My point was that I wasn't going to purchase a "5K or under POS" since driving through the wide open spaces of West TX in a "well seasoned" auto is not my idea of how I want to spend my retirement.

The last new car I bought was from a "one price, no negotiation" Honda dealer. It was a pleasant experience. The only other new car purchase that came close to being that easy was one I bought via the internet right after Al Gore invented it.
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Old 07-01-2010, 09:29 PM   #309
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300+ posts and still going strong.

An awful lot of people seem willing, even enthused, to endure an awful lot of pain, deception, mutual hostility, and thousands of extra dollars of depreciation to get through what appears to be a broke process... just to have reliable transportation?

I've only bought one brand-new car in nearly 30 years of ownership-- and that's the only one that's left me on the side of the road.

There's nothing on this thread that makes me want to grab my spouse and head to the nearest car dealer to try out my newfound negotiating skills. But it makes buying used through Craigslist seem a lot easier.
This was my plan, but the wife wanted a hybrid and wasn't crazy about the Prius or Camry. The one she liked was the Ford Fusion/ Milan, and they just havn't been out that long. The only used one in the area sold for $3000 less than I paid and had 12,000 miles already on it and was a year old. Thats why I went ahead and bought this one. Our other vehicles are a Chevy Avalance with 140,000 miles on it and a Porsche Boxster. The wife likes to take some trips to visit relatives and I was worried about her taking the truck with the high miles, and the Porsche just doesn't haul enough of her stuff.
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Old 07-01-2010, 10:40 PM   #310
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With all due respect, and frankly with my personal thank for anyone who serves as a police officer, what you are describing here is not the law, if you mean that any deal made by the salesman is not valid unless he "signs" it is false. . It is valid whatever the dealer says to the salesman. The dealer has clothed the salesman with apparent authority sufficient to satisfy the statute of frauds. The signature of the dealer is all that is required. Lots of cases on this point. Just think of the authority given to an auctioneer to sell property. It doesn't specify price it specifies authority. If there is a reserve price, that is on the document and disclosed.

If the manager is instructing the salesman to act in bad faith and not make a deal despite purporting to negotiate, it is a violation of the regulatory law that controls dealer licenses, which requires commercial good faith. The Dealer and both individuals can lose their licenses and it is a violation of the consumer protection act, which has substantial civil penalties. It is also "moral turpitude" of the type that disqualifies them from any kind of state occupational license

If you are suggesting that the dealer is instructing the sale person to give the appearance of concluding a deal while actually not making the deal, that is of course criminal fraud.

If you are suggesting that they would lie under oath when questioned , then they are simply felons of the sort I'm sure you dealt with. The felony is perjury.

So if they are willing to commit a crime and perjury, why would I want to do business with them anyway? If they are not, the salesman negotiates and we may make a deal or we may not, no problem.

Again, thank you for your service.

You keep talking legal in this thread..... and others are talking 'practical'...

So... let me try and make it clear... you got a signature on a page... the salesman has LEGAL authority to make a deal... but like the auctioneer, he has a minimum price he can make that deal... HE WILL NOT MAKE A DEAL HE IS NOT AUTHORIZED TO MAKE... but let's say you offer $100 less than he is authorized.... he will say... 'is that the price you will sign'... you say "YES"... he says... well, I can not make that deal, but I WILL run it by my manager... and the manager MIGHT say yes... hence, having a signed paper is meaningless....

This is what everybody is trying to tell you... he will not make a deal with you just to make a deal... he will make one that is reasonable... and dealing with car salesmen... most every one I have made a deal with (with one exception) has made the deal at a good price and the manager has signed off without any problem... sooo, the final results are the same... who knows if you got any better deal than anybody else might have gotten Nobody knows except the people in the dealership....
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Old 07-02-2010, 06:58 AM   #311
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You keep talking legal in this thread..... and others are talking 'practical'...

So... let me try and make it clear... you got a signature on a page... the salesman has LEGAL authority to make a deal... but like the auctioneer, he has a minimum price he can make that deal... HE WILL NOT MAKE A DEAL HE IS NOT AUTHORIZED TO MAKE... but let's say you offer $100 less than he is authorized.... he will say... 'is that the price you will sign'... you say "YES"... he says... well, I can not make that deal, but I WILL run it by my manager... and the manager MIGHT say yes... hence, having a signed paper is meaningless....

This is what everybody is trying to tell you... he will not make a deal with you just to make a deal... he will make one that is reasonable... and dealing with car salesmen... most every one I have made a deal with (with one exception) has made the deal at a good price and the manager has signed off without any problem... sooo, the final results are the same... who knows if you got any better deal than anybody else might have gotten Nobody knows except the people in the dealership....
I'm well aware of the practical issue. But it's a matter of principle. I never negotiate as a principal with a "clerk" with no authority. Second I make it clear that he can make or not make a deal but if he leaves to "check with his manager" I am out of there and a complaint will follow to the regulatory authorities. Finally I never make an "offer" I say "do we have a deal at $$$"
That is what negotiating is about.

Did you ever buy diamonds in New York or leather in Florence or Gold in Cairo? Nobody ever "checks with a manager " They do deals. The "check with a manager" system is a scam designed to wheedle you into making an offer which they can accept or reject after you are committed to it. I just don't play the game.

When I bought a house I made an "all cash" offer good for 1 hour. I waited 20 minutes and got the house.
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Old 07-02-2010, 07:59 AM   #312
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Sorry, I worked an extra year or two so I wouldn't have to worry about driving through the middle of nowhere in a POS.

I know, I know. You live out there in the hinterlands and scorpions could eat you if the POS left you on the road. Me, all I got to do is get to the nearest bar and wait for AAA to come get my car--which doesn't seem to happen as often as new car aficionados (see Nords' comment) would make you think!
Viva la difference!
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Old 07-02-2010, 08:00 AM   #313
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Unless any limit on authority is disclosed to the purchaser, a good faith purchaser can deal with the agent as a principal
"
Doesn't really mean anything. Sure, if the agent signs a super deal the dealer is obligated to honor it but the dealer can tell the salesperson what the limits are on what the salesperson should sign. No salesperson who wants to stay employed would go beyond those limits. This happens all the time in all sorts of negotiations. That is why negotiating teams love to get the other side's big guys at the table. Besides, even without your piece of paper, if a salesperson actually makes a bad deal the manager will rarely refuse to honor it, witness the experience OP just went through. As I said, demanding that a salesperson get such a piece of paper sounds like silliness to me.
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Old 07-02-2010, 08:06 AM   #314
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I know, I know. You live out there in the hinterlands and scorpions could eat you if the POS left you on the road. Me, all I got to do is get to the nearest bar and wait for AAA to come get my car--which doesn't seem to happen as often as new car aficionados (see Nords' comment) would make you think!
Viva la difference!
Yep. You folks who live in a civilized area don't have to worry about dying of thirst and getting eaten by buzzards while waiting for a car to come by to rescue you. Buncha wusses...
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Old 07-02-2010, 08:15 AM   #315
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....and a complaint will follow to the regulatory authorities.

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Old 07-02-2010, 08:34 AM   #316
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Doesn't really mean anything. Sure, if the agent signs a super deal the dealer is obligated to honor it but the dealer can tell the salesperson what the limits are on what the salesperson should sign. No salesperson who wants to stay employed would go beyond those limits. This happens all the time in all sorts of negotiations. That is why negotiating teams love to get the other side's big guys at the table. Besides, even without your piece of paper, if a salesperson actually makes a bad deal the manager will rarely refuse to honor it, witness the experience OP just went through. As I said, demanding that a salesperson get such a piece of paper sounds like silliness to me.
Ok when one refused I went through the whole charade and finally said when he asked me to sign an offer "oh I have to check with my manager I have no more power to make a deal than you do" He got the point

Why should any consumer with authority "negotiate" with a person without authority? Period
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Old 07-02-2010, 08:39 AM   #317
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I also report filthy restaurants, hotels that are fire hazards, ships that are leaking, airlines that lose luggage and don't make good and physician billing offices that try to cheat patients. It's my pro bono publico contribution.
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Old 07-02-2010, 08:42 AM   #318
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So after all this bluffing/negotiation and threats of 'complaints to regulatory authorities', how much do people save over the 'no-haggle' deals that are out there?

Life is short, I don't want to spend any more of it sparring over the desk of a car dealer and/or their manager than necessary.

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Old 07-02-2010, 08:46 AM   #319
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Ok when one refused I went through the whole charade and finally said when he asked me to sign an offer "oh I have to check with my manager I have no more power to make a deal than you do" He got the point

Why should any consumer with authority "negotiate" with a person without authority? Period
I guess I am not being clear. The "authorized" salesperson will simply stop moving at a certain point (his or her limit). You can then walk and maybe the salesperson will call you back with a better offer after talking with the manager. The bottom line is that paper or no, anyone who isn't an owner has external limits beyond which they will not go. I know what you will say - "if I walk, I walk - no further dealings." I am the same but that doesn't mean the "authorized" salesperson will make a deal he or she is not confident the owner would support. So, back to the initial point -- the paper is silly.
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Old 07-02-2010, 08:59 AM   #320
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Ok when one refused I went through the whole charade and finally said when he asked me to sign an offer "oh I have to check with my manager I have no more power to make a deal than you do" He got the point

Why should any consumer with authority "negotiate" with a person without authority? Period
?? The only point I get is that you seem to get some perverse satisfaction from throwing around your legal weight to jerk around the lowly car salesperson and feel 'superior', when you know full well what his/her job description and authority is.

Why don't you simply call the owner of the car dealership ahead of time, explain you will only negotiate with him/her directly, and make an appointment?

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