If you want to actually learn something about Immigration.................

Illegal or Legal. Listen to this program. It is a little more in depth than the "round up up, and kick them out" that you get from right wing radio.


http://www.publicradio.org/tools/med....0&end=13:16.0

[kathyet]

http://www.cis.org/

A good site if you want to read what the bills are about and what people think.

Kathyet

[cute fuzzy bunny]

As long as you understand CIS's bias.

From their mission statement:

"The Center is animated by a pro-immigrant, low-immigration vision which seeks fewer immigrants but a warmer welcome for those admitted."

In other words, we like them people, but we'd rather have fewer of them, i'm going to insert the thinking that they also would like more professionals, and be happier that those fewer, "higher end" people are here.

Now go write "studies" on that basis. Guess what they'll say.

I've torn them apart before. They underestimate or leave out massive costs on the side of higher immigration (legal or otherwise) and overestimate benefits of cutting back, or add in stuff that makes no sense whatsoever in context.

[bpp]

nm

[youbet]

Quote:

Originally Posted by kathyet http://www.cis.org/ A good site if you want to read what the bills are about and what people think. Kathyet

An interesting read Kathyet. Didn't agree with everything, but didn't expect to.

[Eagle43]

This from an email....

Putting Cross-Border Trespassing in Perspective

A lady wrote the best letter I have seen in the Editorials* in ages! It explains things better than all the stuff you hear on TV.

Recently large demonstrations have taken place across the* country protesting the fact that Congress is finally addressing the* issue of illegal immigration. Certain people are angry that the U.S.* might protect its own borders, might make it harder to sneak into this* country and, once here, to stay indefinitely. Let me see if I* correctly understand the thinking behind these protests.

Let's say I break into your house. Let's say that when you* discover me in your house, you insist that I leave. But I say, "I've* made all the beds and washed the dishes and did the laundry and swept the* floors; I've done all the things you don't like to do. I'm* hard-working and honest (except for when I broke into your house) .

"According to the protesters, not only must you let me stay,* you must add me to your family's insurance plan and provide other* benefits to me and to my family (my husband will do your yard work* because he too is hard-working and honest, except for that breaking in* part). If you try to call the police or force me out, I will call my* friends who will picket your house carrying signs that proclaim my* right to be there. It's only fair, after all, because you have a nicer* house than I do, and I'm just trying to better myself. I'm* hard-working and honest ... um, except for ... well, you know.

"And what a deal it is for me!! I live in your house,* contributing only a fraction of the cost of my keep, and there is* nothing you can do about it without being accused of selfishness, prejudice and being* anti-housebreaker."

Did I miss anything? Does this sound reasonable to you? If it* does, grab a sign and go picket something. If this sounds insane to you,* call your senators and enlighten them because they are stumbling in the* darkness right now and really need your help."

So, let's all go break into C-T's house.* He won't mind sharing his wealth.* Just make sure you sweep up before you leave.*

[Martha]

Or: My house is a mess, no one does the chores, and I don't want to pay the prevailing wage for someone to do them for me. So I leave the door unlocked, turn the other way, hoping you come in and start doing my chores. I pay you, but not a whole lot. Oops! Now you want to be able to stay here permanent? You want benefits? Get outta here.

[Leonidas]

I don't see the sense in arguing about the who and how many questions about immigration until we actually have the ability to control who and and how many cross the border.

[BarbaraAnne]

Or how about:

I look the other way so you can sneak in and do my chores and I don't pay you very much...instead I expect all my neighbors, whose chores you don't do, to pay for your education, medical care, food stamps and other needs, because I pay you so little.*

Oh, and I try to pay the least amount possible in taxes, so my neighbors are forced to* pay for your needs for services* through their taxes...

[youbet]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martha I don't want to pay the prevailing wage

I know Martha that you were just giving an example, not expressing your own feelings.........

Isn't it amazing how greed and unwillingness to share the resources of our country fairly leads to issues again and again?

"* ``There comes a time when the operation of the machine becomes so odious, makes you so sick at heart, that you can't take part, you can't even passively take part. And you've got to put your bodies on the gears, and upon the wheels, upon the levers, upon all the apparatus. And you've got to make it stop.''


Mario Salvo

[maddythebeagle]

Quote:

I look the other way so you can sneak in and do my chores and I don't pay you very much...instead I expect all my neighbors, whose chores you don't do, to pay for your education, medical care, food stamps and other needs, because I pay you so little. * Oh, and I try to pay the least amount possible in taxes, so my neighbors are forced to *pay for your needs for services *through their taxes...

I thought that issue was solved by saying that the workers pay into social security and never will get any of that money back.

Also, anybody have any talking points on how many actually want to stay here. I thought the point of them working here was that they make low wages (by our standards), but the money is worth more to them in mexico. Same rationale that several people retire to other countries where their money goes farther.

[Texas Proud]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maddy the Turbo Beagle I thought that issue was solved by saying that the workers pay into social security and never will get any of that money back. Also, anybody have any talking points on how many actually want to stay here. I thought the point of them working here was that they make low wages (by our standards), but the money is worth more to them in mexico. Same rationale that several people retire to other countries where their money goes farther.

WOW.. if you think even a small minority of these people pay any kind of tax you are sorely mistaken... almost all are on a cash basis... you see day laborers hanging around all over... and in fact, Houston has built a couple (I heard they want to build another) day laborer 'parks'... where they can hang out and get picked up without standing in front of the local 7-11 or school or whatever...

[maddythebeagle]

Quote:

WOW.. if you think even a small minority of these people pay any kind of tax you are sorely mistaken... almost all are on a cash basis... you see day laborers hanging around all over... and in fact, Houston has built a couple (I heard they want to build another) day laborer 'parks'... where they can hang out and get picked up without standing in front of the local 7-11 or school or whatever...

I dont nec. think that...that is why I put the* It certainly is an argument the liberals are using, but it doesnt pass the smell test. If people are going to hire undocumented workers, seems to me that they arent going to care about ss. Havent several politicians gotten into hot water for not paying ss on their domestics and there is regular citizens working in the "cash economy".* Based on what I heard on 60 minutes (no reason not to believe them), some jobs require a ss number, though (i.e. factory work) and people get fake ss cards (recycle a number from another us citizen). So I assume that is the money that goes into the ss system that the illegals dont get back....)

[justin]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maddy the Turbo Beagle Also, anybody have any talking points on how many actually want to stay here. I thought the point of them working here was that they make low wages (by our standards), but the money is worth more to them in mexico. Same rationale that several people retire to other countries where their money goes farther.

I was chatting with an Indian buddy over here as an engineer on an H1B visa. He just got married and is planning on having children soon. I assumed he was trying to get a green card and eventually apply naturalize and get citizenship. Boy was I wrong! He didn't really care for a green card and hadn't decided if he even wanted to stay in the U.S. He said the opportunities in India were really great for someone like him with a masters in engineering from a well-regarded US university. And in India, he would be able to afford to hire a driver and a maid/nanny. Pretty enlightening, since I always assumed that immigrants who come here want to stay here permanently.

[laurence]

If only I could get these people to use my SS and *pump up my benefit numbers, esecially if/when I quit working before 62! *

[justin]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Laurence If only I could get these people to use my SS and pump up my benefit numbers, esecially if/when I quit working before 62!

While in law school, I volunteered a lot completing federal tax returns for Spanish speaking migrants primarily from Mexico. Sometimes I couldn't help but laugh. They would come in with W-2's from 4-5 full time jobs (earnings of $50k-60k sometimes for washing dishes or bussing tables) at different places in the state, all under the same SS number. Presumably, they had allowed a couple of their amigos to use their SS number to get employed. Then they were shocked to find out that they had a huge tax liability for all the earnings at a high marginal rate.

Another trick I saw was the folks who would claim 10 withholding allowances on their W-4 so that no tax was withheld. Then comes tax time, and they owe a huge amount of taxes. Sure, they might be supporting 10 family members in mexico, but each dependent had to have an ITIN or SSN in order to claim them on the federal tax return. I think they would get me to fill out their tax forms and then leave and trash them, knowing they couldn't pay their tax bills (sometimes $3000-4000).

Then there's the fellow who I was able to get a few thousand dollar refund for. Him and his wife were so happy they kept hugging me and insisted I take a $20 tip for completing their taxes. (I donated it to the latino community center where we were preparing taxes).

Many paid their taxes though because it is an important step in obtaining permanent residency and citizenship.

[cute fuzzy bunny]

Perhaps a small modification of the letter?

You take someones house by killing some of their family members and forcing them out because your family is larger and stronger and then you move in.

Later, they come back and do all your chores for a low price.

Then add the rest.

The analogy is an intact one, but it overly personalizes it by starting with someone breaking into your home. This is a bit more like someone camping out in your yard or living in your shed.

[samclem]

I think this new analogy would apply well to the situation experienced by American Indians, not illegal immigants fom Mexico (or Canada!).

[cute fuzzy bunny]

That would be the case if the primary location of the illegal immigrants wasnt california, new mexico, arizona and texas, much of which was formerly mexico...

[samclem]

And before it was Mexico?? We're back to the native Americans.