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Re: illegal immigration - What should be done?.........
Old 05-04-2006, 08:29 AM   #41
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Re: illegal immigration - What should be done?.........

I do drive over 55, when I do, I expect to pay the penalty if caught, not be given amnisty.
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Re: illegal immigration - What should be done?.........
Old 05-04-2006, 09:12 AM   #42
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Re: illegal immigration - What should be done?.........

Quote:
Originally Posted by yakers
Legal or illegal immigrants?
Is our country's needs any different now?
Does the fact that everybody except for a handful of natives came from somewhere else mean we should do now what we did then?
the arts part probably legal. i'd have to research ellis island records for details. the professionals legal through loop holes (snuck out of russia under an assumed name to palestine then some of the children sent to the u.s.a.).

while, as you know, you can't base future projections solely on past performance, it might be relatively safe to assume that if past immigration made this country as strong & creative as it is today, that today's immigration will not weaken or dull it into the future.

as the country today has about 300,000,000 people. a few million extra immigrants seems hardly even a handful.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nords
Same thing for me growing up in 1960s-70s Pittsburgh.
and same thing just south of me in miami. a day there today is a day in latin america. the cuban, central & south american influences on architecture and use of colors are wonderful and i think indicative of even better contributions to be made.
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Re: illegal immigration - What should be done?.........
Old 05-04-2006, 09:21 AM   #43
 
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Re: illegal immigration - What should be done?.........

I think Cut Throat brings up some valid points about immigration.

One of the solutions in Texas needs to be an acknowledgement of the situation in terms of building the infrastructure now to support the influx of immigrants. It will take tax dollars to build additional medical facilities and schools to handle the immigrants and their families. *We need to be real about what that will take. *We also need to make sure that corporations who profit from cheap labor, pay their fair share of infrastructure costs and not leave it to the folks who pay the ever-increasing property taxes that many simply can't afford.
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Re: illegal immigration - What should be done?.........
Old 05-04-2006, 09:49 AM   #44
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Re: illegal immigration - What should be done?.........

BarbaraAnn:

In this case, what's good for Texas applies to the rest of the country as well. Infrastructure needs to be implemented in all 50 states to accomodate immigrants from all parts of the world. States with low immigrant counts need to produce affirmative programs showing they can and will attract immigrants in proper proportion. It's a civil rights situation really. And that calls for a national, rather than state by state, response.
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Re: illegal immigration - What should be done?.........
Old 05-04-2006, 09:57 AM   #45
 
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Youbet, I absolutely agree with you, that all states need to get real and deal with this issue.* I was only focusing on Texas since it is a border state, and its major source of revenue is property taxes, which place the tax burden to fund the infrastructure too heavily on individuals and not on corporations and businesses, who pay very little presently in taxes (although the legislature is trying to change this* :)and yet profit significantly because of the massive availability of cheap immigrant* labor.

*
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Re: illegal immigration - What should be done?.........
Old 05-04-2006, 10:23 AM   #46
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Re: illegal immigration - What should be done?.........

BarbaraAnne:

Darn, that's a dandy idea. Set up an effective system of issuing work permits to illegals. Enforce by disciplining employers in the same manner we discipline employers today who do not send withholding and SS taxes in. Step 1 = fines. Step 2 = jail. Then, tax the employers as a percentage of work permit payroll. The collected tax goes to fund immigrant supporting infrastructure. The infrastructure needs to be provided one way or another, why not focus the funding at those benefitting from the situation.
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Re: illegal immigration - What should be done?.........
Old 05-04-2006, 11:10 AM   #47
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Re: illegal immigration - What should be done?.........

Heres the result of the "solution":

Billions to identify and eject existing illegal immigrants.

Billions to attempt to stop them from reentering, with weak results (see: "the war on drugs")

Collapse of a significant portion of our agricultural industry, construction industry, and people leaving the workforce in droves because they cant afford child care and home care at "retail" prices.

Terrorists still get in, because nobody has ever been able to effectively and complete seal their borders. We'll keep out the house keepers and fruit pickers, but all the bad guys have to do is wrap themselves in marijuana and get on the speed boat or airplane.

Lazy dirtbags that dont want to work will still sit at home with one less excuse for not working.

We'll all feel good about attempting to enforce a law.

I'm all for whacking the walmarts that brazenly hire and lock illegal immigrants into their stores at night to clean. The companies who "hire" fake employees by the thousands that are actually illegal immigrants.

But the majority of the work is being hired out by individuals and small businesses at price points that if raised, will simply result in all that work not being done as its no longer cost effective. Wow, what a problem and what a terrific benefit in solving it... :
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Re: illegal immigration - What should be done?.........
Old 05-04-2006, 11:38 AM   #48
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Re: illegal immigration - What should be done?.........

Hmmmm..... If you're referring to the solution I suggested, you're not correct. I assume you're referring to one of the other posts, but I can't tell which one.
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Re: illegal immigration - What should be done?.........
Old 05-04-2006, 12:14 PM   #49
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Re: illegal immigration - What should be done?.........

I was discussing in general to the topic., not responding to you at all.

To respond to your comments specifically, it looks like you want to create a costly bureaucracy that will end up being subverted, create a lot of fines, and add more people to our overcrowded jails for relatively victimless crimes. To what end?

That worked out great in the "war on drugs", among other things. Look at the billions we spent creating the homeland security bureaucracy that still hasnt done crap.

It seems like the "problem" is jobs/work related. There are a lot of people who are willing to risk life and limb to come here and work for peanuts doing stuff that either nobody wants to do, wants to do at a price that is reasonable and appropriate, or that is unfeasible to teach someone to do while paying them $20 an hour.
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Re: illegal immigration - What should be done?.........
Old 05-04-2006, 12:39 PM   #50
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Re: illegal immigration - What should be done?.........

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cute Fuzzy Bunny


it looks like you want to create a costly bureaucracy that will end up being subverted,
No, not at all.
Quote:


There are a lot of people who are willing to risk life and limb to come here and work for peanuts
Yep.* And a lot of highly skilled folks we can't get over here to do sophisticated work for less that citizens demand.* Engineering folks, medical folks, softheads, etc.*

The underground economy of illegals causes difficulities in providing needed services such as schooling and healthcare.* I's just like to see most of them identified and their employers taxed to provide funding for new schools, clinics and the like.* Why take this out on children and other disadvantaged folks?
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Re: illegal immigration - What should be done?.........
Old 05-04-2006, 03:36 PM   #51
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Re: illegal immigration - What should be done?.........

People who work harder than me are definitely going to make it harder to be a fat lazy american without being noticed.

Sometimes when I get bored I like to compare my 5th or 6th generation financial resources with a 1st generation mexican american and laugh at their poorness, silly bastards, muhahaha.


Uh, yea, so anyways, let them in, leave them alone, and do some research into how beneficial they are to the economy. There is a reason why many economists are libertarian.
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Re: illegal immigration - What should be done?.........
Old 05-04-2006, 05:53 PM   #52
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Re: illegal immigration - What should be done?.........

Quote:
Originally Posted by youbet
No, not at all.
Well, thats what will end up happening. Turn any "problem" over to the government to solve, you end up with a lot of overhead, bureaucracy and nothing better (usually worse) than what you started with. You start getting immigration going on 'tracking' and 'legitimizing' illegal labor pools, its going to be 'git yer waders on' time...

Quote:
Yep. And a lot of highly skilled folks we can't get over here to do sophisticated work for less that citizens demand. Engineering folks, medical folks, softheads, etc.
Ok, thats right, but what the heck does that have to do with illegal immigration and the "solutions" to it?

Quote:
The underground economy of illegals causes difficulities in providing needed services such as schooling and healthcare. I's just like to see most of them identified and their employers taxed to provide funding for new schools, clinics and the like.
Care to elaborate? I'm unfamiliar with the problems illegal immigrants cause in the school and healthcare areas. I dont mean to say that i'm ignorant of the issues, rather that I've familiarized myself with them and found the bugaboo immigrant school/health care issues to, at best, lack substance.
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Old 05-04-2006, 08:16 PM   #53
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Re: illegal immigration - What should be done?.........

What illegal immigration costs you:
<http://www.augustafreepress.com/stories/storyReader$39399>

Dobbs: Radical groups taking control of immigrant movement
http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/05/01/dob...ion=cnn_latest

According to these links, business owners love illegal workers because they keep costs down but also depress wages for the American workers. In addition, the undocumented workers incur hidden costs to society since they need health care, education and social services. The articles do not mention who is paying for these needed services. I assume it is implied that the tax payers are footing the bill, granted the undocumented workers also pay some taxes.
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Old 05-04-2006, 10:11 PM   #54
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Re: illegal immigration - What should be done?.........

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cute Fuzzy Bunny
Well, thats what will end up happening.*
* Care to elaborate?* Your statement makes no sense.
Quote:
Ok, thats right, but what the heck does that have to do with illegal immigration and the "solutions" to it?
Care to elaborate?
Sure.* When we establish some procedure for inbound immigration, we need to include making quick citizenship for engineering, medical and software professionals quick and automatic.
Quote:
* I'm unfamiliar with the problems illegal immigrants cause in the school and healthcare areas.*
* They arrive at emergency rooms and schools requiring resources and we haven't planned for the resources to be there.* It's not really complicated.
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Old 05-04-2006, 10:22 PM   #55
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Re: illegal immigration - What should be done?.........

Sure. You hand something over to the government to "manage" and you end up with no management and a few billion in overhead. See "TSA" for reference.

No arguments on improving integration of immigrant professionals.

I wont drag up the never ending "illegal immigants cost us tons of money in hospitals and schools" threads. Do a search. Hospitals and schools spend more on paper than they do on illegal immigrant health care and schooling. Its a red herring. I did a full analysis when some guy who thought nazi zombie web sites was a great source of data brought it up last year.
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Re: illegal immigration - What should be done?.........
Old 05-04-2006, 10:33 PM   #56
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Re: illegal immigration - What should be done?.........

So, you're home schooling or private schooling your son?
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Re: illegal immigration - What should be done?.........
Old 05-05-2006, 08:41 AM   #57
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Re: illegal immigration - What should be done?.........

Hi CFB,

I don't know if these are the most minute aspects of your post, so if I have erred bear with me.* And as I have said, I don't really have a stake in this issue.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cute Fuzzy Bunny
Heres the result of the "solution":

Billions to identify and eject existing illegal immigrants.

Billions to attempt to stop them from reentering, with weak results (see: "the war on drugs")
I suggested kicking 'em out, so in response to your cost estimate, maybe I would suggest that a huge program would not be needed.* Institute spot checks of employers' records, and make the penalties severe when someone gets caught.* For example, Japan imposes immediate deportation and a 5 year ban on re-entry when an illegal immigrant is found.* Of course, Japan doesn't have a large, porous border like the US has, so something may get lost in the translation.* But it shouldn't cost tremendous amounts to do spot checks of employers' records.* And at least impose the cost of having to sneak across again on illegals.

Quote:
Collapse of a significant portion of our agricultural industry, construction industry, and people leaving the workforce in droves because they cant afford child care and home care at "retail" prices.
I also suggested raising the quotas if you need cheap labor, so you could avoid some of this pain by increasing the number of legal workers.* Why do you need illegal workers for these jobs?* And if you do need them to be illegal in order to save money, do you really feel it is right to exploit (self-admitted loaded phrase alert) people like that to save a few cents on the price of an orange?

Quote:
I'm all for whacking the walmarts that brazenly hire and lock illegal immigrants into their stores at night to clean.* The companies who "hire" fake employees by the thousands that are actually illegal immigrants.

But the majority of the work is being hired out by individuals and small businesses at price points that if raised, will simply result in all that work not being done as its no longer cost effective.* Wow, what a problem and what a terrific benefit in solving it... :
I can see what you're saying here (and will take you at your word that individuals are the main employers -- seems mind-boggling to me), but I still can't help but thinking that institutionalizing an illegal underclass is not a good thing.* It seems hypocritical somehow.* And erodes what little respect people may have for the law as it is.

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Re: illegal immigration - What should be done?.........
Old 05-05-2006, 09:10 AM   #58
 
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Quote:
For example, Japan imposes immediate deportation and a 5 year ban on re-entry when an illegal immigrant is found. Of course, Japan doesn't have a large, porous border like the US has,
Do you think that this could be a factor in why their economy has been in the toilet for the last 15 years? - Again, what 'problem' are we trying to solve. If it's law for the sake of law, then maybe the law is the 'problem'.
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Old 05-05-2006, 09:12 AM   #59
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Re: illegal immigration - What should be done?.........

Everyone keeps saying immigrants, well there is a difference between "legal" and "illegal" immigrants. If the difference isn't understood well.....

This country loves to make new laws why don't they enforce the laws we already have. If you hire illegal's you get a big penalty and jail time. This law has been on the books for years what good* is it if it isn't used.

If your "illegal" you go to jail..why does the tax payer have to pay to send them home? If they want to do the jobs no one here does then put them to work. They can clean up the roads, and or whatever, they can even help build new jials, while there in jail, for a small fee of course. No $15.00 : dollars an hour that no one here wants to make. This pay will be used to purchase their one way ticket home.

Since when are "illegals" entiled to free health care, free education, and free anything that is provided to a U.S. citizen..after all what is good for us should be good for them we don't get anything free and if we do it is our "right" as an American citizen. It seems they are afforded much more than we are. They even get better treatment than some of our Veterens.

I am tired of their demands...they need to go back from where they came from and demand those changes there and force a* change* to the things that drove them here to begin with...I would like to see them protest and yell and scream for their "rights" in their home country. Why aren't they doing that

I don't know what the big deal is about "illegal" is "illegal".

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Re: illegal immigration - What should be done?.........
Old 05-05-2006, 09:19 AM   #60
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Re: illegal immigration - What should be done?.........

Kathyet... I agree. "illegal" is "illegal" Politicians have done a good job of confusing the issue.

By the way, I heard an estimate that there were 300,000 illegal immigrants in Houston. I heard that when I was sitting on I-10 going 3 miles an hour, and wondered what 300,000 fewer folks would do to our traffic flow. And yes, illegal immigrants in Texas drive cars! In fact what would 11,000,000 fewer illegal immigrants do to our freeway system, most likely nothing in Montana, but ask a LA commuter.
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