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Re: illegal immigration - What should be done?.........
Old 05-05-2006, 09:29 AM   #61
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Re: illegal immigration - What should be done?.........

Rustic 23


By the way, I heard an estimate that there were 300,000 illegal immigrants in Houston. I heard that when I was sitting on I-10 going 3 miles an hour, and wondered what 300,000 fewer folks would do to our traffic flow. And yes, illegal immigrants in Texas drive cars! In fact what would 11,000,000 fewer illegal immigrants do to our freeway system, most likely nothing in Montana, but ask a LA commuter.



I think your right! Also I was out shopping Monday, it was a good day on the roads no traffic. I bet if it is checked out there were fewer accidents and hit and runs as well.

Kathyet
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Re: illegal immigration - What should be done?.........
Old 05-05-2006, 09:32 AM   #62
 
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Re: illegal immigration - What should be done?.........

Quote:
Originally Posted by kathyet
I don't know what the big deal is about "illegal" is "illegal".

Kathyet
So you're saying that the law is the 'problem'?
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Re: illegal immigration - What should be done?.........
Old 05-05-2006, 09:38 AM   #63
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Re: illegal immigration - What should be done?.........

So you're saying that the law is the 'problem'?


NO the inforcement of the law is the problem and has been for 20 years or more.

Kathyet
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Re: illegal immigration - What should be done?.........
Old 05-05-2006, 09:39 AM   #64
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Re: illegal immigration - What should be done?.........

Nicely said Bpp!

There seems to be some misunderstandings about what others are saying passing back and forth on this thread.

Some seem to feel that instituting a process whereby guests in our nation would be recognized and documented means doing something negative to current Mexican undocumented workers. *Actually, for most of us, at least for me, it means handling the situation in a prescribed manner rather than with a "wink." And it means not exploiting people.

While its true that Latinos make up most of the undocumented population, there is a sizable minority of others. Plus a long waiting list of others wishing permission to enter. *Procedures we institute for Latino "cheap labor" will/should apply to doctors from India, engineers from Taiwan, softheads from Pakistan, tradesmen from Ireland, etc.

Many have mentioned the fact that this country is made up of immigrants and praised the rich cultural diversity we all benefit from. *True. *But other waves of immigration were predominantly "legal." *When millions of Irish came to the USA, they passed through Ellis Island and followed a procedure to become citizens. When hate and discrimination raised their ugly heads ("no Irish need apply") their legal status provided the foundation for eventual integration into society and some economic parity. *Will Hispanics sneaking in and out under our current "wink-wink" sysem fare as well?

I detect a hint of disingenuousness with people who "can't see the problem" from their expensive homes, from their expensive vacations and hobbies, from their "white and FI" point of view. *Is the greed-driven thrill of finding a "human bargain" when the Hispanic landscaper arrives at your home to manicure your lawn for little compensation so great you can't see the inequities crying out for relief? *




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Re: illegal immigration - What should be done?.........
Old 05-05-2006, 09:42 AM   #65
 
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Re: illegal immigration - What should be done?.........

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Originally Posted by kathyet
So you're saying that the law is the 'problem'?[


NO the inforcement of the law is the problem and has been for 20 years or more.

Kathyet
So, how much extra taxes would you be willing to pay for total enforcement of this law?

And do you believe that the 'War on Drugs' is a working program? IOW - are we totally enforcing the 'Drug laws'?
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Re: illegal immigration - What should be done?.........
Old 05-05-2006, 10:09 AM   #66
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Re: illegal immigration - What should be done?.........

So, how much extra taxes would you be willing to pay for total enforcement of this law?

And do you believe that the 'War on Drugs' is a working program? IOW - are we totally enforcing the 'Drug laws'?



Taxes why, the answer isn't always to throw more tax money at a problem.

If the laws were enforced a long time ago we wouldn't be having the problem today on either issue. You tell me why drug enforcement isn't working.

But that's okay just keep winking on the issue's or giving out little slaps on the hands, kind of depends on who you are with that though.

As far as paying were all paying and paying dearly if not in taxes in other ways.

But all the retoric isn't going to change anything is it..after all it hasn't in all these years.

Kathyet

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Re: illegal immigration - What should be done?.........
Old 05-05-2006, 10:12 AM   #67
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Re: illegal immigration - What should be done?.........

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cut-Throat
And do you believe that the 'War on Drugs' is a working program? IOW - are we totally enforcing the 'Drug laws'?
Are you satisfied with the level of drug law enforcement regarding selling drugs to children at or near schools? *If not, would you support, with your tax dollars, an effort to reduce this practice?
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Re: illegal immigration - What should be done?.........
Old 05-05-2006, 10:43 AM   #68
 
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Re: illegal immigration - What should be done?.........

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Originally Posted by kathyet

I am tired of their demands...they need to go back from where they came from and demand those changes there and force a change to the things that drove them here to begin with...I would like to see them protest and yell and scream for their "rights" in their home country.
Kathyet
Can you tell us, when they 'go back where they came from' - how this will make the united States a better country? - Please give us some good facts and data to back up your claims.
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Re: illegal immigration - What should be done?.........
Old 05-05-2006, 11:14 AM   #69
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Re: illegal immigration - What should be done?.........

Felicidades! Es el cinco de mayo!
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Re: illegal immigration - What should be done?.........
Old 05-05-2006, 11:30 AM   #70
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Re: illegal immigration - What should be done?.........

Between the veiled racism and the willingness to export opinions that are not in agreement with the facts, coupled with the knowledge that nothing on an internet discussion group will change anyones mind, i've decided to follow justins lead and give up and go buy a bottle of tequila and a bag of limes.

Just mark my words. Implement the sort of "immigration reform" thats being bandied about and enjoy the higher taxes and huge economic impacts. You'll have to enjoy those, because there will be no measurable benefits produced.
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Re: illegal immigration - What should be done?.........
Old 05-05-2006, 11:35 AM   #71
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Re: illegal immigration - What should be done?.........

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Originally Posted by Cute Fuzzy Bunny
...i've decided to follow justins lead and give up and go buy a bottle of tequila and a bag of limes.
Ven conmigo, amigo!

(glad I managed to stay out of this little discussion).
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Re: illegal immigration - What should be done?.........
Old 05-05-2006, 11:38 AM   #72
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Re: illegal immigration - What should be done?.........

Cut-Throat -
Great topic --- *major problems out here in Southern California. *Over utilization of hospital emergency rooms, school overcrowding, freeways are used to capacity, apartment overcrowding, increase of crime. * My parents were legal immigrants from Europe, they mastered the English language, never went on welfare or used government assistance. * There is no enforcement out here in California and the border gates are 'wide open.'
My best hope is that the children of the illegals become educated (on our dime) and productive members of our society down the line.
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Re: illegal immigration - What should be done?.........
Old 05-05-2006, 12:12 PM   #73
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Re: illegal immigration - What should be done?.........

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cut-Throat
. . . If it's law for the sake of law, then maybe the law is the 'problem'.
Hey. . . isn't that what I said.

Of course it's the law that is the problem. People are coming here because they can get paid an amount of money that is acceptable to them to do work. People are willing to pay them to do the work because they get the job done at a price that is acceptable to them. It's called the free market. An interesting point I've noticed is that some people have been spouting free market arguments and smaller government arguments everytime they needed to justify granting greater power to corporations. Now many of these same people seem to be most determined to establish a massive government infrastructure to purge our country of a labor source.

The only complication to this excellent example of the free market at work is that our immigration laws do not provide a way for this to happen legally.

So here are our options: 1) Build up a massive immagration enforcement organization and attempt to thwart the free market and global economy, or 2) Change the law to allow the free market forces to work and benefit from greater tax base.

Of course, if the underlying principle that drives your view is simply racism, then the answer changes considerably.
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Re: illegal immigration - What should be done?.........
Old 05-05-2006, 12:19 PM   #74
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Re: illegal immigration - What should be done?.........

Quote:
Originally Posted by kathyet
Taxes why, the answer isn't always to throw more tax money at a problem.

If the laws were enforced a long time ago we wouldn't be having the problem today on either issue. You tell me why drug enforcement isn't working.

But that's okay just keep winking on the issue's or giving out little slaps on the hands, kind of depends on who you are with that though.

As far as paying were all paying and paying dearly if not in taxes in other ways.

But all the retoric isn't going to change anything is it..after all it hasn't in all these years.

Kathyet

If the law is not appropriate to the situation today, doesn't it make more sense to change the law than to mindlessly spend money to enforce it? The law will not let unskilled, manual laborers to immigrate legally, yet the country clearly needs this type of work. So we outlaw laborers and laborers are outlaws.

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Re: illegal immigration - What should be done?.........
Old 05-05-2006, 12:27 PM   #75
 
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Who is supposed to pay for the additional infrastructure needed when 20 million people are in the country and now need schooling for their children and healthcare and most likely food stamps, etc.?

How about solving THAT problem before we allow more exploited* labor into the country?* If they don't even make a living wage who subsidizes their needs? Taxpayers?
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Old 05-05-2006, 12:31 PM   #76
 
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Re: illegal immigration - What should be done?.........

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Originally Posted by BarbaraAnne
Who is supposed to pay for the additional infrastructure needed when 20 million people are in the country and now need schooling for their children and healthcare and most likely food stamps, etc.?

How about solving THAT problem before we allow more exploited labor into the country? If they don't even make a living wage who subsidizes their needs? Taxpayers?
You see, when they are working they are paying taxes, that's who pay for it!

Who pays for the babies that are born down the street from you?

Do you have any facts on what exactly this is costing us? Or maybe how much we are making on it?
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Re: illegal immigration - What should be done?.........
Old 05-05-2006, 12:44 PM   #77
 
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Re: illegal immigration - What should be done?.........

CT-

Not many people who make low wages, pay ANY taxes....just look at the tax tables...
In addition those who do the low end jobs Americans won't do like housekeepers and landscapers, etc. are paid in cash...for a reason*

Oh, and my neighbors pay into the health insurance system, they are not indigent.

And your point is?....
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Old 05-05-2006, 01:05 PM   #78
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Re: illegal immigration - What should be done?.........

Cesar Chavez was against illegal immigration. He wasn't against immigration, of course. He was just pro-Union and realized that illegal immigrants depressed wages and would be taken advantage of by the companies hiring them.

We need to either make the current illegals citizens or get a serious guest worker program going.

As far as costs, there's no doubt that food and construction would cost a LOT more without illegals or migrant farmworkers (see above re: depressed wages). It's not all rosy, though. Any region can absorb a decent amount of the poor but too many people in the lower areas of the socioeconomic scale can really tax (har!) a region. Then there's the social security benefit. We need younger people to feed the system. Who better then immigrants? Cause it ain't gonna be me in 10 years.

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Old 05-05-2006, 01:07 PM   #79
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Re: illegal immigration - What should be done?.........

Quote:
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People are willing to pay them to do the work because they get the job done at a price that is acceptable to them.*
Interesting.......* But I wonder....... is the minimum wage concept, so often bandied about, realistic under this scenario?* That is, will citizens need to* accept sub-minmum wage jobs, if necessary, in order to be able to compete with non-citizen labor?* Should minimum wage laws continue to exist applying only to documented and citizen workers?

Please don't respond with the tired "Americans won't work that cheap" answer. *If that was true, we wouldn't need/have minimum wage laws. *In actuality, I have a developmentally delayed grandchild whom I often think about when the subject turns to competition for low wage jobs. *I was hopeful that minimum wage laws would possibly help him sometime in the future. *But if the future is undocumented workers in sub-minimum wage jobs, why would we even have minimum wage laws?

Consideration in the tone of your remarks (not you sgeeeeee, anyone who replies) would be appreciated. *I'm not as thick skinned on this subject as on most others.
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Re: illegal immigration - What should be done?.........
Old 05-05-2006, 01:41 PM   #80
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Re: illegal immigration - What should be done?.........

Opinions on this subject are all well and good, but unfortunately most information people spout off is based on nothing.


I find that the same people who hate the "problem" with "illegals" are the same kind of people who think "eating before bed makes you fat".

IE: Ignorant
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