illegal immigration - What should be done?.........

[sgeeeee]

Quote:

Originally Posted by youbet Interesting.......* But I wonder....... is the minimum wage concept, so often bandied about, realistic under this scenario?* That is, will citizens need to* accept sub-minmum wage jobs, if necessary, in order to be able to compete with non-citizen labor?* Should minimum wage laws continue to exist applying only to documented and citizen workers? . . .

First, I have not seen any proof that immigrant labor is having a significant impact on minimum wage violation. *I needed to get a hole dug to repair my irrigation system last week, for example. *I paid the high school kid down the street $20 to help me because he was cheaper than the immigrant laborers I could get from the parking lots. *I've been told that most of the large employers who hire illegal immigrants are paying minimum wage. *I'm told that hotels are paying maids minimum wage. *etc. *

But, if it is true that immigrant labor is being paid sub-minimum wage, we should either enforce those laws or change them. *

[Nords]

Quote:

Originally Posted by sgeeeee But, if it is true that immigrant labor is being paid sub-minimum wage, we should either enforce those laws or change them. *

But only after we're done hiring them!

[youbet]

Quote:

Originally Posted by sgeeeee First, I have not seen any proof that immigrant labor is having a significant impact on minimum wage violation. But, if it is true that immigrant labor is being paid sub-minimum wage, we should either enforce those laws or change them. *

I admit, I'm making an assumption that undocumented workers frequently accept less than minimum wage. *If that's not the case, then my point is moot.

Just to keep semantics straight...... *I'm refering to undocumented workers, not immigrants as you mentioned.

Anyway, if that's the case, I stand corrected. *I thought the undocumented folks standing in parking lots waiting for someone to offer them a days work frequently worked for less than minimum wage. *If not, then it's another story.

[eridanus]

Quote:

Originally Posted by youbet I thought the undocumented folks standing in parking lots waiting for someone to offer them a days work frequently worked for less than minimum wage. If not, then it's another story.

They're generally paid $8-10/hr where I live (TX). Of course, that's probably tax-free but, hey, not paying taxes has a long history in America.

Migrant farmworkers, however...

http://www.aflcio.org/mediacenter/pr...nderForPrint=1

What I'm asking here is for some facts.

It seems that most people say that the problem with illegals is economic (i.e. that there is a cost to the American Economy). If it is economic, I'm asking what is the rough number?- In Billions would be close enough. And then does more enforcement cost more than we're try to save? Enforcement does cost money with the huge open border that we have. - Don't be naive in thinking more enforcement won't cost a ton of dough.

For instance, I personally think the Iraq War was a Total waste of money, if not lives. The number is $320 Billion and growing. So I'm trying to put a perspective on the 'Illegal Problem'. Is it bigger than the Iraq war? Smaller?

If you are racist and just don't want 'those kind' of people here, just admit it. Then we can be done discussing it. I can really accept that you are small minded racist!

If it's not economic or racist, please clue me in on the problem that it is causing you?

[SteveR]

"This study is one of the first to estimate the total impact of illegal immigration on the federal budget. Most previous studies have focused on the state and local level and have examined only costs or tax payments, but not both. Based on Census Bureau data, this study finds that, when all taxes paid (direct and indirect) and all costs are considered, illegal households created a net fiscal deficit at the federal level of more than $10 billion in 2002. We also estimate that, if there was an amnesty for illegal aliens, the net fiscal deficit would grow to nearly $29 billion...."

Source: Center for Immigration Studies

http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/fis...c.html#Complex

Here is a link on the enforcement side of the question.

"In July 2005, the Center for American Progress published a report
assessing the costs of arresting, detaining, prosecuting, and
deporting illegal aliens. The study, Deporting the Undocumented: A
Cost Assessment, estimated that the total cost of mass deportation
would be between $206 and $230 billion over five years or an
average cost of between $41 and $46 billion annually over a five
year period. The following paper reviews the data on mass
deportation. In reassessing the cost, the following analysis
compares and contrasts what an amnesty would cost taxpayers in
terms of social services, lost wages, health care subsidies, and
educational expenditures. The author concludes that comparative
estimates demonstrate “no matter how high the costs of
deporting illegal aliens may seem, the costs of not deporting them
are larger still.”


http://www.nationalpolicyinstitute.o...eportation.pdf

[JB]

The problem is one of civil rights and equal opportunity. *America is a democracy. *A large and growing illegal population erodes these ideals. *If this continues, deeper problems will come. Do we want to live in a two tiered society where the opportunities available depend of which tier you are on? *I don't.

[sgeeeee]

Quote:

Originally Posted by youbet I admit, I'm making an assumption that undocumented workers frequently accept less than minimum wage. *If that's not the case, then my point is moot. . .

I admit that my personal experience is very limited, but I have not seen an indication that there are violations of minimum wage laws.

Here are some examples of cases I know about:

When I first moved into my current house, I put in a lot of replacement flooring -- carpets and tile. *The local merchant who I bought the flooring from also installed it. *On the days when they were going to do the labor, he went down to the corner and picked up two guys who spoke only Spanish and paid them to work with him. *I assume they may have been undocumented workers, but he paid them $12/hour. *

A few years ago I had some decorative ironwork put in around my patio. *I called around and got quotes and went with the lowest bidder who also impressed me most with his description of the work he would do. *He arrived with a helper who he met and picked up that morning. *(Again, I assume he was undocumented). *The helper was supposed to be the guy who lugged stuff and did the grunt work, but he was actually a more skilled welder than the guy I called. *I forget what he paid this guy, but he decided to try to establish a relationship with him because he was impressed with his skill and hard work. *So was I.

My wife and I coordinate the maintenance and operation of the irrigation system for our neighborhood. *Parts of the system are over 40 years old so things break fairly often. *Depending on our schedule and what the problem is, I fix a lot of the stuff myself, but some jobs (underneath streets) require a liscensed contractor and some jobs require special equipment that I don't have. *All of the irrigation companies we've worked with hire (probably undocumented) laborers to do the required digging and they all pay them minimum wage.

As I mentioned in my previous post, I've been told that most of the large employers who hire undocumented workers actually pay minimum wage.

I'm sure there are cases where people pay undocumented workers sub-standard wages, but that used to happen to the locals in the textiles industries when I lived in North Carolina. *Is the problem any worse because of illegal immigrants? *I guess I am like cutthroat and would like to see real data before I get behind massive enforcement build-up. *

Quote:

Originally Posted by JB Do we want to live in a two tiered society where the opportunities available depend of which tier you are on? I don't.

I really don't either, but we already do. And illegal immigration is not the cause of this at all. I would blame it more on the global economy.

[Maximillion]

CT, the Iraqui Invasion Was not a Total waste of Money, it IS a total waste of money, and of lives.

The War starts when the U.S Forces leave.

[haha]

Quote:

Originally Posted by SteveR "This study is one of the first to estimate the total impact of illegal immigration on the federal budget. Most previous studies have focused on the state and local level and have examined only costs or tax payments, but not both. Based on Census Bureau data, this study finds that, when all taxes paid (direct and indirect) and all costs are considered, illegal households created a net fiscal deficit at the federal level of more than $10 billion in 2002. We also estimate that, if there was an amnesty for illegal aliens, the net fiscal deficit would grow to nearly $29 billion...." Source: Center for Immigration Studies http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/fis...c.html#Complex Here is a link on the enforcement side of the question. "In July 2005, the Center for American Progress published a report assessing the costs of arresting, detaining, prosecuting, and deporting illegal aliens. The study, Deporting the Undocumented: A Cost Assessment, estimated that the total cost of mass deportation would be between $206 and $230 billion over five years or an average cost of between $41 and $46 billion annually over a five year period. The following paper reviews the data on mass deportation. In reassessing the cost, the following analysis compares and contrasts what an amnesty would cost taxpayers in terms of social services, lost wages, health care subsidies, and educational expenditures. The author concludes that comparative estimates demonstrate “no matter how high the costs of deporting illegal aliens may seem, the costs of not deporting them are larger still.” http://www.nationalpolicyinstitute.o...eportation.pdf

I think we now have a definitive answer. Can all the people who want their grass cut, their beds made, their children cared for please pitch in and pick up this tab?

Why you would even need a study to figure this out is beyond a peckerwood like me.

Ha

Quote:

Originally Posted by HaHa I think we now have a definitive answer. Can all the people who want their grass cut, their beds made, their children cared for please pitch in and pick up this tab? Why you would even need a study to figure this out is beyond a peckerwood like me. Ha

Just from the brief numbers stated, it looks like it would cost us more (dollar wise) to 'kick them out' than to let them stay.

[justin]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cut-Throat Just from the brief numbers stated, it looks like it would cost us more (dollar wise) to 'kick them out' than to let them stay.

If we keep them, $10 bil/yr works out to $33 per US man, woman and child.

If we kick them out, $206 bil one time works out to $687 per US man, woman and child.

Also note that the $10 bil/yr "cost" only reflects the net cost to the federal govt. It doesn't seem to reflect the costs/benefits to the economy overall (cheaper labor inputs, etc).

And the $206 bil figure to kick em out doesn't include costs to keep them kicked out in the future.

Assuming these numbers are true, I would agree that it is cheaper to keep them here. I'll mail my $33 in to Uncle Sam next April.

[youbet]

Quote:

Originally Posted by justin Assuming these numbers are true, I would agree that it is cheaper to keep them here.**

It does look like that's the story by the numbers. Although I'm not sure what the statement "The author concludes that comparative
estimates demonstrate “no matter how high the costs of
deporting illegal aliens may seem, the costs of not deporting them
are larger still.” means.* *

*Nevertheless, I still think we need to get some kind of handle on the demographics so that services can be forecasted and reasonably provided.* A continuing strong influx of folks into some areas is bound to strain the public sector's ability to provide basic services and it would be helpful to provide some federal aid.* I'm not saying remove the current undocumented population or slow the flow of new arrivals.* I am saying get a handle of how many might be where and when and act to have at least minimal human services resources available.

I'm amazed at the calousness of some of the views proclaiming that "doing nothing" for the undocumented folks is the way to go.* As long as you can get a bargain getting your lawn manicured, your table at the exclusive restaurant bused and cheap goods, you're happy.* "Keep 'em coming with no provision for basic services as long as I get a bargain."* "Show me the numbers."* When you're done looking at the numbers from the confines of your exclusive fancy digs up north in the elite neighborhood, try visiting a school where the influx of undocumented folks has doubled the student to teacher ratio.* Then still say "do nothing."* Sure, who cares, the heck wid 'em huh?

[sgeeeee]

Quote:

Originally Posted by SteveR "This study is one of the first to estimate the total impact of illegal immigration on the federal budget. . . . . . . . The author concludes that comparative estimates demonstrate “no matter how high the costs of deporting illegal aliens may seem, the costs of not deporting them are larger still.”

This study reminds me of a study done by one of the Professional societies I am a member of. *Our group collects dues, produces technical journals, holds conferences and performs a few other services for members. *We collect and spend about $1.5M per year altogether. *We were trying to establish an appropriate fee structure for membership so we sent our financial gurus in to figure out how much membership services cost us. *It turns out that the average member costs us $17 per year above the membership fees we collect. *Most of our money was coming from libraries buying our journals and non-members attending our conferences. *The joking conclusion we arrived at was that we should discourage membership since each new member we added cost us $17. *Of course that conclusion completely overlooks the fact that without members, we lose our volunteer base that reviews and publishes journals or organizes conferences. *Without our large membership base (over 12,000 engineers) we would not have the credibility to attract libraries and non-members to our journals and conferences.

This immigration study assumes that losing 11M-12M current workers would have no impact on the profitability of companies and contractors in the US -- that there would be no negative tax consequences. *Somehow that assumption doesn't make much sense to me. *In fact, I would guess that this could be the most important factor in the equation. *But even if you believe their numbers and don't believe there is any positive impact to our economy from this work, I don't understand the conclusion. *They seem to be saying, "it may cost us more to get rid of illegal immigrants than is costs to ignore them, but we should do it anyway." *

[samclem]

This "mass deportation" cost of $230 billion is a strawman. I don't think anybody is seriously talking about hunting down, arresting, imprisoning, and physically moving 14 million illegal aliens over the border (a cost of approx 16K per illegal alien).

Illegal aliens will move themselves back home at zero cost if the appropiate incentives/disincentives are put into place. Penalties for hiring, denial of publicly-funded services, etc would be a start.

Quote:

Originally Posted by samclem This "mass deportation" cost of $230 billion is a strawman. I don't think anybody is seriously talking about hunting down, arresting, imprisoning, and physically moving 14 million illegal aliens over the border (a cost of approx 16K per illegal alien). Illegal aliens will move themselves back home at zero cost if the appropiate incentives/disincentives are put into place. Penalties for hiring, denial of publically-fundd services, etc would be a start.

So, Sam are you thinking we are gonna save big time money doing this? - What's your objective, if it's not Money? Why are you people so worked up about this? - We're pouring money down a rat hole everyday over in Iraq. Are you upset at all about that?

Hey, if you're a racist and don't want 'them people' here, I can accept that! - I'm just trying to get you people to think about what the REAL issue is.

[BigMoneyJim]

I'll weigh in as being on the C-T / CFB / Sgeeeee side of things. I don't understand the problem, and in fact I *have* seen people call for removing all the illegals. Maybe they aren't serious?

I'm losing track of who's saying what. I hear one person saying we should make the illegals legal and others complaining that they shouldn't have an advantage over those waiting in the line legally.

For economic impact, it seems to me that even if illegals are dodging income tax that they are consuming perishables, durables and housing and are unable to dodge the built-in taxes for most of that. Schools are supported by property tax, right?

I would love it in principle if everybody were here legally, but I don't see a sane path to get there from here.

Just to throw a somewhat unrelated wrench into the works, what do you think of foreigners with visas purposely having their babies in the U.S. to gain dual citizenship for their kids?

[youbet]

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigMoneyJim Just to throw a somewhat unrelated wrench into the works, what do you think of foreigners with visas purposely having their babies in the U.S. to gain dual citizenship for their kids?

Let's see if I can get this right per the C-T training manual.........* " We're pouring money down a rat hole everyday over in Iraq. Are you upset at all about that?"

[youbet]

Isn't the real issue here stopping same sex marriages between undocumented workers? Or am I getting something mixed up with one of the other threads?