Immigration policy

[laurence]

To follow up, I've heard estimates of $2500 to pay a cyote to get you across the border, and we've got, what, 5 million illeagals? So 5 million times $2500 equals $12.5 billion, right? Doesn't that pay for several months of the iraq war? Plus, now a good half of them will do the right thing and pay payroll tax etc.

[wildcat]

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I've heard estimates of $2500 to pay a cyote to get you across the border, and we've got, what, 5 million illeagals? So 5 million times $2500 equals $12.5 billion, right?

My new career is calling....Thanks L.

[sgeeeee]

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Originally Posted by Laurence To follow up,* I've heard estimates of $2500 to pay a cyote to get you across the border . . .

This is much higher than I've heard. The numbers I hear about for coyotes in Phoenix are more along the lines of $100 to $200. It's still a lot of money though. I've had the same thought. If people are willing to put their life at risk by paying these dangerous coyotes $100 or more, surely they would be willing to pay a fee of far more than that to be allowed to cross the boarder legally and safely.

[brewer12345]

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Originally Posted by Laurence To follow up,* I've heard estimates of $2500 to pay a cyote to get you across the border, and we've got, what, 5 million illeagals?* So 5 million times $2500 equals $12.5 billion, right?* Doesn't that pay for several months of the iraq war?* Plus, now* a good half of them will do the right thing and pay payroll tax etc.

Sounds good, but I suspect that the poor and desperate will continue to take their chances.

I think we basically have a problem that cannot realistically be solved, so it makes more sense to try to figure out how to live with it and make as much of the situation as possible. *Hard sell in the current political environment, though. *I think the "guest worker" permit idea is not a bad start, but it remains to be seen whether the people who hire illegal immigrants for cash wages would actually adhere to a new set of regulations.

[HFWR]

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Originally Posted by ((^+^)) SG * This is much higher than I've heard.* The numbers I hear about for coyotes in Phoenix are more along the lines of $100 to $200.* It's still a lot of money though.* I've had the same thought.* If people are willing to put their life at risk by paying these dangerous coyotes $100 or more, surely they would be willing to pay a fee of far more than that to be allowed to cross the boarder legally and safely.* *

In a Volvo?* :

Seriously, whatever happened to "your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breath free"?

[brewer12345]

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Originally Posted by Have Funds, Will Retire In a Volvo?* : Seriously, whatever happened to "your poor, your tired, your huddled masses yearning to breath free"?

That went out in the 1920s. Now its right wing wacks standing on the border with guns and Merkin flags.

[Brat]

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Originally Posted by brewer12345 ... it remains to be seen whether the people who hire illegal immigrants for cash wages would actually adhere to a new set of regulations.

There has always been a cash wage economy for casual yard workers.* Home child care workers are less frequently cash workers because some of the expense is deductable for many parents.* The best way to prevent business from paying in cash is to not allow cash payments as expenses in a tax return.*

The most effective solution is to empower the guest-worker immigrants with information about US and state employment laws.* They are here for money, give them information so that they can get the best return for their time.* Maybe we could require a guest-worker to take classes so that they know about rights and responsibilities of a guest worker, give them special SSNs where the money withheld goes to pay for health care, not retirement.

Why should employers of guest workers be subject to special regulations.* We don't require that employers go through any special certification to hire a US resident.* If we tie the employee to an employer the economic leverage of the employee shrinks.* I want a situation where the employee can walk away and find another job.* That is what the free market and free people are all about.

The tough part will be controling the number of guest worker certificates.* If the home country picks and chooses the system will be corrupt.* I don't think preference should be given to the educated.

[AltaRed]

Perhaps America should look to Europe for several examples of guest worker programs. Europe is not a whole lot different than USA in the need for workers to fill the jobs permanent residents won't take and they seem to have systems that work better.

[Nords]

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Originally Posted by brewer12345 ... and Merkin flags.

I wonder how many merkins had to be sacrificed to make those flags!

You're gonna have to work on your accent, Brewer.* I think Gallagher calls it the "dad-gum gummint" and "us Murricans"...

[Honkie]

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Originally Posted by Laurence My opinion about immigration is the same as my opinion on the "drug war".* Instead of spending billions in a futile fight, legalize, regulate, and tax it and turn it into a revenue stream.*

It won't be too long before most "soft" drugs are entirely legalised in Europe, rather than the semi-official turn a blind eye policy on cannabis and the like that exists now in many places (save for The Netherlands that fully legalises and regulates). From that point, I think eventually all drugs will have some form of official registration and distribution channel and a more sensible management approach to the issue of drugs will evolve. Fighting a "War on Drugs" is like fighting a "War on Gravity" - it will cost billions, last forever and never succeed.

Immigration is much the same - so long as a group of people with nothing to lose exists who can make more money in another country than at home, they will migrate, legally or illegally.* Impossible to stop this simple economic truth. As with drugs, don't fight it but manage it. Give all current illegal immigrants anmesty and access to social benefits provided they register and pay their dues and taxes. Heavily penalise employers of illegals but incentivise them to help convert their illegal to legals.

[Brat]

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Perhaps America should look to Europe for several examples of guest worker programs.

I am not so sure that the are the best role models, unless you view a French national working in Denmark as a guest worker.

[Honkie]

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Originally Posted by Brat I am not so sure that the are the best role models, unless you view a French national working in Denmark as a guest worker.

A French national working in Denmark is NOT a guest worker. All EU citizens are free to work anywhere in Europe without restriction.

The only EU country with a true "Guest Worker" program is Germany, who have a specific scheme for Turkish workers. That scheme has it's own problems though.

Cheers

Honkie

[BigMoneyJim]

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Originally Posted by Honkie It won't be too long before most "soft" drugs are entirely legalised in Europe, rather than the semi-official turn a blind eye policy on cannabis and the like that exists now in many places (save for The Netherlands that fully legalises and regulates). From that point, I think eventually all drugs will have some form of official registration and distribution channel and a more sensible management approach to the issue of drugs will evolve. Fighting a "War on Drugs" is like fighting a "War on Gravity" - it will cost billions, last forever and never succeed. Immigration is much the same - so long as a group of people with nothing to lose exists who can make more money in another country than at home, they will migrate, legally or illegally. Impossible to stop this simple economic truth. As with drugs, don't fight it but manage it. Give all current illegal immigrants anmesty and access to social benefits provided they register and pay their dues and taxes. Heavily penalise employers of illegals but incentivise them to help convert their illegal to legals.

I can't help but observe that low-paid immigrants are financially advantageous to American business while legalized pot, for example, would likely reduce the sales of American medicine. Offhand, I don't think European companies are as threatened by a growable-at-home hallucinogen.

Straying into politics a bit, it also occurs to me that people who benefit from low-paid illegal immigrants (business owners, the wealthy) would typically seem to be Republican, yet it is the Republicans that seem to want to close the borders. I'm obviously missing something.

[Brat]

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Originally Posted by Honkie A French national working in Denmark is NOT a guest worker. All EU citizens are free to work anywhere in Europe without restriction. The only EU country with a true "Guest Worker" program is Germany, who have a specific scheme for Turkish workers. That scheme has it's own problems though.

You got my point!

[Honkie]

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Originally Posted by BigMoneyJim I can't help but observe that low-paid immigrants are financially advantageous to American business while legalized pot, for example, would likely reduce the sales of American medicine. Offhand, I don't think European companies are as threatened by a growable-at-home hallucinogen.

I don't think the market in medicinal cannabis/marijuana is enough to topple the mighty drug companies, but even if if they did lose a little business, so what? The greater good in reduced drug related crime and the tax revenues from legal drug production and sales would more than make up for a little less profit for a few pharamceutical companies.

Looking further, I think a similar solution is the only way on the wider "War on Drugs" in the sense of harder Class A drugs. Registration for users, regulated and controlled production, distribution and wholesale (which would all provide legal employement and profits producing tax revenue) and controlled distribution to registered users along with treatment for dependency. Couple that with very harsh sentencing for non-registered users and you provide the economic incentive for people to register. It also provides a sustainable agricultural living for millions of farmers who are currently either in subsistence or always trying to stay one step ahead of law and routinely having their crops burned or confiscated. Make these people productive instead of trying to destroy them and an industry that is indestructible. Anyone who thinks they can eliminate the drug trade should watch the movie "Traffic".

Just my humble opinion.

Cheers

Honkie

[MRGALT2U]

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Originally Posted by Honkie Anyone who thinks they can eliminate the drug trade should watch the movie "Traffic". Just my humble opinion. Cheers Honkie

I agree about "eliminate the drug trade" but 'Traffic' was only a movie.
It's just entertainment.

JG

[justin]

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Originally Posted by BigMoneyJim Straying into politics a bit, it also occurs to me that people who benefit from low-paid illegal immigrants (business owners, the wealthy) would typically seem to be Republican, yet it is the Republicans that seem to want to close the borders. I'm obviously missing something.

I think you are wrong with regards to who benefits from cheap migrant labor. If you eat food, you most likely benefit from cheap labor inputs into food production.

I think it is xenophobia that scares the Repubs into wanting to close the border. Maybe they are scared of cultural assimilation from Mexicans. Maybe they don't want their kids runnin off and producin brown babies. Maybe they can't speak Spanish and don't want them Mexicans speakin their Spanish behind their backs. Not sure. Economically, I think many businesses benefit greatly from cheap migrant labor. Around here, it is cheaper to hire a crew of professional landscapers (from Mexico) to mow your yard than it is to hire the kid next door.

And the immigrants love buying our gringo products (and paying tax on said products). Ever been to the Walmart near where all the Mexicans live?

Apples are the main crop in this area, the locals will not pick them, migrants from Jamaica and Mexico are brought in and housed.

911 almost put a lot of Farmers out of business, they could not fly in the labour.

The Workers are extremely well behaved, friendly, they do not want to lose their jobs, the families back home depend upon them.

[sgeeeee]

Here's what I see in Arizona:

Fruit, vegetables, nuts: All much cheaper in the grocery store because the field labor is done by people with questionable citizenship.

Yard work: You may call Zeb Smith's landscaping service, but the guys who show up to mow the grass and trim the trees and hedges don't speak english.

Flooring, carpeting:Buy from any store, the installation is done by Orlando and Juan.

Cement & brick work: I'm not sure there are any American citizens who can do this as well as the immigrant labor that seems to be on every project.

Handyman work: Need a ditch dug, a shelf built, wrought iron fence mended, . . . Drive down to one of many corners in the area where workers assemble and tell them what you need done. They do good work for cheap. But get there early because your neighbors will be competing for the labor force.

I don't know how much cost would be added to our lives without this source of cheap labor, but it is a considerable amount. It's not just the wealthy industrialist that is benefiting.

[AltaRed]

Which is the whole point. Can't have your cake and eat it too as I said earlier in this thread. Pay appropriately for goods and services produced by legal labor or accept the dark market for what it is.

Bottom line is that the current situation serves the American public well. Bottom feeding and exploitation is an art form in this country.