Incandescent Light Bulbs - Which are going away When?

[Zathras]

It doesnt produce more heat. It is just that the CFLs are more sensitive to heat than incandescants.
We had about 20 par 30 CFLs none burned out in 3 years (although one did break when I dropped it).
Not sure about the brand you got or how it performs, just wanted to give you our experience.

[samclem]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zathras Sorry Sam, I couldn't tell if that was a joke or not.

Half joking. My comment was just as "serious" as any suggestion that someone would actually jump through the necessary warranty hoops to get a refund (for unused service life) on a $2 CFL. People buy the CFL bulbs based on the claimed life, and (in my experience) they often don't live nearly that long.
I like the CFLs for many purposes, and I'm using them for those. There are some jobs, however, for which they are ill-suited (don't work as well or at all, do not have a favorable payback period, or even result in more energy use than an incandescent bulb.) I'd like the option to buy the right bulb for the right job.
And I'd really like to know why the federal government believes they have any authority to regulate this activity. There are lots of things we'd like people to do (be nice to each other, eat more leafy vegetables) and not do (swear around small children, drive recklessly), but we don't pass federal laws to accomplish these things.

[TromboneAl]

Quote:

so they are on-off-on-off a lot. That's not good for CFL's, and I also want immediate full brilliance.

We have CFLs in many locations in which they are on for short periods (for example, in the stairwell). Most CFLs are instant on, and many come up to 80% of their brightness very quickly (source). This video is pretty much an ad for GE, but it shows a new CFL that comes to full brightness about as fast as incandescents:

YouTube - ‪MythBusters- Do CFL bulbs take longer to turn on?‬‏

With a lot of on/off they still last as long as incandescents (second part of this video):

[GregLee]

Quote:

Originally Posted by TromboneAl Most CFLs are instant on, and many come up to 80% of their brightness very quickly (source).

The 27W CFLs that I linked to previously come on instantly. My wife thinks these are too bright for reading, however, and the only low wattage full spectrum CFLs I could find for her take 5 seconds or so to reach full brightness.

[RunningBum]

Here's a good summary of where and where not to use CFLs. The list of "not" is as long (but not as common) as the list of where to use them. Doesn't seem like the old bulbs should be taken off the market at this point. The enclosed fixture issue is a big one.

I need to go through my house and take an inventory of all of the bulbs I'm using, and which ones that I haven't yet converted that I should. I know that I've converted all of the heavy use bulbs that I could, but with prices coming down from when I last looked at this I should convert some medium use ones, and probably even low use ones. For the ones not appropriate or cost effective (like dimmable ones) to convert, I'm going to see how many I've got stocked up and buy some more.

[ERD50]

I'll try to at least get back to part of this, then I gotta run...

re - 'subsidies' versus 'payback'...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Webzter If I had known we needed to be pedantic, then I could have said that it significantly brings one immediate out of pocket costs down significantly.

Yes, I know what you meant. But in the sense of payback, it bugs me, so I challenge it when I see it. Transferring money from one group to an individual doesn't change the economics of payback. If the individual would not see the thing as something of value, why should another group pay for some it for them? The group wouldn't buy it for themselves either, why buy it for someone else, and give them the 'benefit'? Makes no sense. I guess I don't consider my phrasing to be pedantic, I consider the standard phrasing to be wrong and misleading.

Quote:

However, I would posit that, long term, yes it may actually help with all costs including taxes to support your utility. Suppose you buy money from an electrical company. Suppose that electrical company needs to build plants as demand for electricity increases. Suppose that it's consumers cutting energy consumption allows it to push off the need for building new plants. Suppose the cost of the rebate to make this happen is significantly lower than the cost of a new plant. In that case, offering the rebate is a much more economical solution as it's effectively freed up a new plant worth of capacity by subsidizing. I suppose that'd probably be a good thing.

I understand the concept that conservation can save the cost of new construction or reduce expensive peak power. However, I'd really love to have someone show me that the math works. Utilities are regulated and that ties them in with the government, and I'd bet these subsidies make as much economic sense as Cash-for-Clunkers did to reduce gasoline consumption. IIRC, some calculations I did from public info showed ~ $17 cost per gallon estimated to be saved. No one I know would spend $17 of their own money to save $4 of gas, so why should 'we' do it?

I doubt CFLs do much for peak power reduction. That's usually during the day when A/C is running. Home lighting would probably be a very small % of that peak, and offices are already using full-sized florescent, which are more % than CFL. I really doubt the numbers work, I'd bet it's another 'feel good' program. And I'd bet there are easier ways to do this with much better payback.

-ERD50

[RunningBum]

Quote:

Originally Posted by TromboneAl We have CFLs in many locations in which they are on for short periods (for example, in the stairwell). Most CFLs are instant on, and many come up to 80% of their brightness very quickly (source). This video is pretty much an ad for GE, but it shows a new CFL that comes to full brightness about as fast as incandescents:

Are these nearly instant on price competitive? This is where I have issues with the CFL advocates. They will point out that CFL bulbs have greatly come down in cost. They will also point out that they can be dimmable, or instant on, or handle cold. But they don't mention that many of these are high cost bulbs. I'm not replacing bulbs for a 20 year payback. I'll wait another 5 years to see if there will be a 2 year payback.

[TromboneAl]

These days, all the CFLs I buy seem to be instant on. Not instant full-brightness, but they come on right away to perhaps 60% brightness. After a few years, they still come on right away, but will be very dim at first.

[Texas Proud]

Quote:

Originally Posted by TromboneAl We have CFLs in many locations in which they are on for short periods (for example, in the stairwell). Most CFLs are instant on, and many come up to 80% of their brightness very quickly (source). This video is pretty much an ad for GE, but it shows a new CFL that comes to full brightness about as fast as incandescents: YouTube - ‪MythBusters- Do CFL bulbs take longer to turn on?‬‏ With a lot of on/off they still last as long as incandescents (second part of this video):

06-06-2011, 02:06 PM	#70
RunningBum Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...   Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 13,227	The ones I notice most are the recessed lights (R30, I think). Mine come on at about 20%, in a couple of seconds seem to flicker to about 30%, and probably take a full minute to get to full brightness. I'm not exaggerating. I think I put these in about 2-4 years ago. If they've gotten better, it's been pretty recently. The type A CFL bulbs that replace the pear shaped incandescent bulbs do seems to come on more quickly, and I think most of what I have of those are older.

06-06-2011, 04:03 PM	#71
Dimsumkid Thinks s/he gets paid by the post   Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Chicago Posts: 1,008	I just visited Costco and found they recently restocked the candalabra, flame tip mini base bulbs in CFLs ($6pk/$4.90 utility subsidized price) and also sell them in LEDs (3 pk/$17.97). Don't know why, but none were in stock for the last 2-3 months in all the Chicago area stores I visited. They also started offering an instant manufacturer rebate for PAR38 LEDs for $29.99, these are made by Cree, but the name brand was either Lights of America or Feit. I put in reg. shaped Utilitech LED's ($9.98 at Lowes) in my spotlights, 40 watts equiv. and they are instant on and very bright. This was my first LED purchase and so far, I'm very impressed with them. The room is no longer dark and replaced 40 watt equiv. CFL's. My in laws have an older CFL, it's almost 10% brightness for about 2 minutes, then gets to full brightness. I gave him some newer CFLs to replace that old one, luckily it's in the basement.

06-13-2011, 09:54 AM	#72
Telly Thinks s/he gets paid by the post   Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 2,395	Thanks to all who posted. Early last week I found some additional info, was about to post it, but an emergency came up that may not be over yet (oh joy). Anyway, here is what I found. Buried away on Walmart's website somewhere I'll probably never find again, was a slide on the bulb phase-out. According to that, it affects A-line bulbs, with special purpose and rough-duty bulbs remaining. The slide has the GE logo on it, and I figure either they helped walmart make it, or more likely GE made the slide for walmart. The way I interpret it is that the "special purpose" and "rough-duty" bulbs are the A-line bulbs that will remain available when this is all done. So what is an "A-line" bulb? The letter "A" refers to a basic glass envelope shape. There are A-15, A-19, A-21, A-22, and maybe some other little-used oddballs out there. A-19 is the most common everyday incandescent lightbulb envelope. It is 2 3/8" in diameter at the widest part. These are available in 40 through 100 watt sizes. A-15 is the second most common envelope around the house. It is smaller at 1 7/8" in diameter at the widest part. The 40 watt oven/refrigerator bulb is this envelope size, also some clear 40 watt bulbs used in lamps and chandeliers etc. I would expect the oven/refrig bulb to continue on, as it is a special-purpose bulb. A 40 watt A-15 that is NOT a rough-duty I would expect to go away. If "Fan Light" bulbs have established themselves as a rough-duty class, then they might stay. "Garage Door Opener" bulbs I would expect to stay, as they have heavier (less light output but more durable) filaments, and more filament supports to reduce filament breakage due to the harsh vibration environment. So if walmart/GE is correct, then all of the OTHER incandescent bulb types (PAR, indoor spotlight, indoor floodlight, etc.) are NOT affected by the light bulb law. __________________ -- Telly, the D-I-Y guy -- Two fools dancing on the hands of time

06-13-2011, 11:36 AM	#73
Telly Thinks s/he gets paid by the post   Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 2,395	Welp, it's not as simple as I had thought above. See this link from Osram Sylvania: http://assets.sylvania.com/assets/Do...2010f8da78.pdf The bottom of page 3 lists exemptions. Page 6 starts what will be going away. Slipped into the A-19 block are the 60B11 which is the 60 watt version of a blunt or torpedo-looking bulb used in many fancier fixtures, and the 60G25 which is the 60 watt version of the globe-shaped bulb I have commonly seen used around vanity mirrors. You can google those numbers to see what they look like if you think you may have them. But use more than one source, as I have seen questionable pictures. I need to figure out if the 60B10 will be going away, it is the B-envelope 60 watt bulb, but in the candelabra base. I have them in outdoor lanterns, the only thing that fits. Also starting on page 6, the PAR and floods/spots that are going away. 65 watt and below versions are not affected. I suspect that the lighting companies have come to love this. It takes many of their highest-volume products out of the commodity-pricing world, and replaces (?) them with more-expensive units that they can run a higher margin on for some years. So just bend over, consumers, our congress knows what's best for us. __________________ -- Telly, the D-I-Y guy -- Two fools dancing on the hands of time

06-13-2011, 11:39 AM	#74
Rustic23 Thinks s/he gets paid by the post   Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Lake Livingston, Tx Posts: 4,204	If the Governor signs the bill Texas will have regular light bulbs. Made in Texas, and Sold only in Texas. __________________ If it is after 5:00 when I post I reserve the right to disavow anything I posted.

06-13-2011, 11:47 AM	#75
REWahoo Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...   Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Texas: No Country for Old Men Posts: 50,021	Quote: Originally Posted by Rustic23 If the Governor signs the bill Texas will have regular light bulbs. Made in Texas, and Sold only in Texas. I hear he's also signing a bill to allow us to keep black & white TV's... __________________ Numbers is hard

06-13-2011, 12:30 PM	#76
Nords Moderator Emeritus   Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Oahu Posts: 26,860	Quote: Originally Posted by REWahoo I hear he's also signing a bill to allow us to keep black & white TV's... But would you be allowed to export them to the other states? __________________ * Co-author (with my daughter) of “Raising Your Money-Savvy Family For Next Generation Financial Independence.” Author of the book written on E-R.org: "The Military Guide to Financial Independence and Retirement." I don't spend much time here— please send a PM.

06-13-2011, 12:37 PM	#77
Rustic23 Thinks s/he gets paid by the post   Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Lake Livingston, Tx Posts: 4,204	I can see there will be new federal gov. employees checking cars for light bulbs on the Texas borders! It's a jobs bill. __________________ If it is after 5:00 when I post I reserve the right to disavow anything I posted.

06-13-2011, 12:45 PM	#78
harley Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...   Join Date: May 2008 Location: No fixed abode Posts: 8,765	Quote: Originally Posted by Rustic23 If the Governor signs the bill Texas will have regular light bulbs. Made in Texas, and Sold only in Texas. Doesn't matter. The SCOTUS has determined that you can't grow pot in your own home for your own use in a legal medical marijuana state (Gonzales v. Raich - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) based on the Commerce Clause, so you sure as hell won't be able to manufacture and use your own lightbulbs. It's for your own good! And to protect the kids! __________________ "Good judgment comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgement." - Anonymous (not Will Rogers or Sam Clemens) DW and I - FIREd at 50 (7/06), living off assets

06-13-2011, 01:17 PM	#79
ERD50 Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...   Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Northern IL Posts: 26,891	Quote: Originally Posted by Telly ... and the 60G25 which is the 60 watt version of the globe-shaped bulb I have commonly seen used around vanity mirrors. .... I suspect that the lighting companies have come to love this. It takes many of their highest-volume products out of the commodity-pricing world, and replaces (?) them with more-expensive units that they can run a higher margin on for some years. So just bend over, consumers, our congress knows what's best for us. Not to mention that those many of those vanity designs really count on that style of bulb. So if the CFLs don't cut it for that application (cost, color of the light, or other aesthetics), you might end up replacing the whole vanity It really torques me. A vanity light is only going to be on for relatively short periods. How much electricity is this really saving? Silly, silly, silly. I think the current admin has mentioned a goal of 1 million electric cars on the road by 20xx? I read that Germany looked into this same goal (and that 1M would obviously be a much higher % of their fleet), and they figured that if they achieved it, the carbon footprint of the country would be reduced by less than 1%. So they dropped it. Makes even less sense for the US, 1M cars would be a very small % of the fleet, and with all our coal plants, it would probably be a total wash carbon-wise. I wonder how much energy savings is going to be offset by people having to buy new fixtures (I had to cut up an outdoor fixture the other day, just to get the bigger base of a CFL to screw in all the way, it rode up on top of the rim of the fixture). Plus, all the CFLs in low use areas will never regain the extra energy required to produce the CFL in the first place - those are environmental losers on several fronts. Gee Congress, let me decide what kind of bulb I want, and you go concentrate on something important. -ERD50

06-13-2011, 01:30 PM	#80
JOHNNIE36 Thinks s/he gets paid by the post   Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Naples Posts: 2,179	Quote: Originally Posted by samclem Half joking. My comment was just as "serious" as any suggestion that someone would actually jump through the necessary warranty hoops to get a refund (for unused service life) on a $2 CFL. People buy the CFL bulbs based on the claimed life, and (in my experience) they often don't live nearly that long. I like the CFLs for many purposes, and I'm using them for those. There are some jobs, however, for which they are ill-suited (don't work as well or at all, do not have a favorable payback period, or even result in more energy use than an incandescent bulb.) I'd like the option to buy the right bulb for the right job. And I'd really like to know why the federal government believes they have any authority to regulate this activity. There are lots of things we'd like people to do (be nice to each other, eat more leafy vegetables) and not do (swear around small children, drive recklessly), but we don't pass federal laws to accomplish these things. Tell me one application where the CFL cost outweighs the incandescent bulb. Maybe you didn't read my earlier post about our condo association changing over to CFL's in the early nineties. That "experiment" prompted all the other condo associations and the master association in that development to convert to CFL's. I've since left the area but a friend of mine says they are still using CFL's. When the cost comes down I think the halogen bulbs might take over the CFL's. The life cycle is much longer.

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wrigley

[RunningBum]

The ones I notice most are the recessed lights (R30, I think). Mine come on at about 20%, in a couple of seconds seem to flicker to about 30%, and probably take a full minute to get to full brightness. I'm not exaggerating. I think I put these in about 2-4 years ago. If they've gotten better, it's been pretty recently.

The type A CFL bulbs that replace the pear shaped incandescent bulbs do seems to come on more quickly, and I think most of what I have of those are older.

[Dimsumkid]

I just visited Costco and found they recently restocked the candalabra, flame tip mini base bulbs in CFLs ($6pk/$4.90 utility subsidized price) and also sell them in LEDs (3 pk/$17.97). Don't know why, but none were in stock for the last 2-3 months in all the Chicago area stores I visited. They also started offering an instant manufacturer rebate for PAR38 LEDs for $29.99, these are made by Cree, but the name brand was either Lights of America or Feit. I put in reg. shaped Utilitech LED's ($9.98 at Lowes) in my spotlights, 40 watts equiv. and they are instant on and very bright. This was my first LED purchase and so far, I'm very impressed with them. The room is no longer dark and replaced 40 watt equiv. CFL's. My in laws have an older CFL, it's almost 10% brightness for about 2 minutes, then gets to full brightness. I gave him some newer CFLs to replace that old one, luckily it's in the basement.

[Telly]

Thanks to all who posted. Early last week I found some additional info, was about to post it, but an emergency came up that may not be over yet (oh joy).

Anyway, here is what I found. Buried away on Walmart's website somewhere I'll probably never find again, was a slide on the bulb phase-out. According to that, it affects A-line bulbs, with special purpose and rough-duty bulbs remaining.

The slide has the GE logo on it, and I figure either they helped walmart make it, or more likely GE made the slide for walmart.

The way I interpret it is that the "special purpose" and "rough-duty" bulbs are the A-line bulbs that will remain available when this is all done.

So what is an "A-line" bulb? The letter "A" refers to a basic glass envelope shape. There are A-15, A-19, A-21, A-22, and maybe some other little-used oddballs out there.

A-19 is the most common everyday incandescent lightbulb envelope. It is 2 3/8" in diameter at the widest part. These are available in 40 through 100 watt sizes.

A-15 is the second most common envelope around the house. It is smaller at 1 7/8" in diameter at the widest part. The 40 watt oven/refrigerator bulb is this envelope size, also some clear 40 watt bulbs used in lamps and chandeliers etc. I would expect the oven/refrig bulb to continue on, as it is a special-purpose bulb. A 40 watt A-15 that is NOT a rough-duty I would expect to go away.
If "Fan Light" bulbs have established themselves as a rough-duty class, then they might stay.
"Garage Door Opener" bulbs I would expect to stay, as they have heavier (less light output but more durable) filaments, and more filament supports to reduce filament breakage due to the harsh vibration environment.

So if walmart/GE is correct, then all of the OTHER incandescent bulb types (PAR, indoor spotlight, indoor floodlight, etc.) are NOT affected by the light bulb law.

[Telly]

Welp, it's not as simple as I had thought above. See this link from Osram Sylvania:

http://assets.sylvania.com/assets/Do...2010f8da78.pdf

The bottom of page 3 lists exemptions.

Page 6 starts what will be going away. Slipped into the A-19 block are the 60B11 which is the 60 watt version of a blunt or torpedo-looking bulb used in many fancier fixtures, and the 60G25 which is the 60 watt version of the globe-shaped bulb I have commonly seen used around vanity mirrors. You can google those numbers to see what they look like if you think you may have them. But use more than one source, as I have seen questionable pictures.

I need to figure out if the 60B10 will be going away, it is the B-envelope 60 watt bulb, but in the candelabra base. I have them in outdoor lanterns, the only thing that fits.

Also starting on page 6, the PAR and floods/spots that are going away. 65 watt and below versions are not affected.

I suspect that the lighting companies have come to love this. It takes many of their highest-volume products out of the commodity-pricing world, and replaces (?) them with more-expensive units that they can run a higher margin on for some years. So just bend over, consumers, our congress knows what's best for us.

[Rustic23]

If the Governor signs the bill Texas will have regular light bulbs. Made in Texas, and Sold only in Texas.

[REWahoo]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rustic23 If the Governor signs the bill Texas will have regular light bulbs. Made in Texas, and Sold only in Texas.

I hear he's also signing a bill to allow us to keep black & white TV's...

[Nords]

Quote:

Originally Posted by REWahoo I hear he's also signing a bill to allow us to keep black & white TV's...

But would you be allowed to export them to the other states?

[Rustic23]

I can see there will be new federal gov. employees checking cars for light bulbs on the Texas borders! It's a jobs bill.

[harley]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rustic23 If the Governor signs the bill Texas will have regular light bulbs. Made in Texas, and Sold only in Texas.

Doesn't matter. The SCOTUS has determined that you can't grow pot in your own home for your own use in a legal medical marijuana state (Gonzales v. Raich - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) based on the Commerce Clause, so you sure as hell won't be able to manufacture and use your own lightbulbs. It's for your own good! And to protect the kids!

[ERD50]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Telly ... and the 60G25 which is the 60 watt version of the globe-shaped bulb I have commonly seen used around vanity mirrors. .... I suspect that the lighting companies have come to love this. It takes many of their highest-volume products out of the commodity-pricing world, and replaces (?) them with more-expensive units that they can run a higher margin on for some years. So just bend over, consumers, our congress knows what's best for us.

Not to mention that those many of those vanity designs really count on that style of bulb. So if the CFLs don't cut it for that application (cost, color of the light, or other aesthetics), you might end up replacing the whole vanity

It really torques me. A vanity light is only going to be on for relatively short periods. How much electricity is this really saving? Silly, silly, silly.

I think the current admin has mentioned a goal of 1 million electric cars on the road by 20xx? I read that Germany looked into this same goal (and that 1M would obviously be a much higher % of their fleet), and they figured that if they achieved it, the carbon footprint of the country would be reduced by less than 1%. So they dropped it. Makes even less sense for the US, 1M cars would be a very small % of the fleet, and with all our coal plants, it would probably be a total wash carbon-wise.

I wonder how much energy savings is going to be offset by people having to buy new fixtures (I had to cut up an outdoor fixture the other day, just to get the bigger base of a CFL to screw in all the way, it rode up on top of the rim of the fixture). Plus, all the CFLs in low use areas will never regain the extra energy required to produce the CFL in the first place - those are environmental losers on several fronts.

Gee Congress, let me decide what kind of bulb I want, and you go concentrate on something important.


-ERD50

[JOHNNIE36]

Quote:

Originally Posted by samclem Half joking. My comment was just as "serious" as any suggestion that someone would actually jump through the necessary warranty hoops to get a refund (for unused service life) on a $2 CFL. People buy the CFL bulbs based on the claimed life, and (in my experience) they often don't live nearly that long. I like the CFLs for many purposes, and I'm using them for those. There are some jobs, however, for which they are ill-suited (don't work as well or at all, do not have a favorable payback period, or even result in more energy use than an incandescent bulb.) I'd like the option to buy the right bulb for the right job. And I'd really like to know why the federal government believes they have any authority to regulate this activity. There are lots of things we'd like people to do (be nice to each other, eat more leafy vegetables) and not do (swear around small children, drive recklessly), but we don't pass federal laws to accomplish these things.

Tell me one application where the CFL cost outweighs the incandescent bulb. Maybe you didn't read my earlier post about our condo association changing over to CFL's in the early nineties. That "experiment" prompted all the other condo associations and the master association in that development to convert to CFL's. I've since left the area but a friend of mine says they are still using CFL's. When the cost comes down I think the halogen bulbs might take over the CFL's. The life cycle is much longer.