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Old 02-17-2008, 05:59 PM   #41
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Straight from Obama's Web Site:

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Barack Obama's Record
  • Housing: In the U.S. Senate, Obama introduced the STOP FRAUD Act to increase penalties for mortgage fraud and provide more protections for low-income homebuyers, well before the current subprime crisis began.
  • Predatory Lending: In the Illinois State Senate, Obama called attention to predatory lending issues. Obama sponsored legislation to combat predatory payday loans, and he also was credited with lobbied the state to more closely regulate some of the most egregious predatory lending practices.
  • American Jobs: Barack Obama introduced the Patriot Employer Act of 2007 to provide a tax credit to companies that maintain or increase the number of full-time workers in America relative to those outside the US; maintain their corporate headquarters in America; pay decent wages; prepare workers for retirement; provide health insurance; and support employees who serve in the military.
2 years in the Senate .... hasn't balanced a budget larger than his checkbook or managed a workforce larger than his personal staff.

I expect more credentials from the leader of the free world.
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Old 02-17-2008, 06:02 PM   #42
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2 years in the Senate .... hasn't balanced a budget larger than his checkbook or managed a workforce larger than his personal staff.
In comparison, have either of the other candidates? (been in charge of significant checkbooks or staff). Romney could have handily make that claim... maybe my man Bloomberg will step up.
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Old 02-17-2008, 06:22 PM   #43
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Yeah, I would vote for ANY Gov. - or even Mayor - before a Senator. Might explain why JFK was the last senator to be elected. BUT this year is DIFFERENT.
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Old 02-17-2008, 07:07 PM   #44
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I don't know what the basis of your opinion is regarding Obama's similarity is to Hitler (coming from "no-where" is kinda of a shallow assertion) -- seems like a pretty loaded charge to make without any real substantiation.

Then you connect Obama to Louis Fararakhan (and anti-semitism) and you admit you don't know anything about that, but you just throw it out there.
Chris, I appreciate your willingness to engage the issues. You will perhaps admit that to declare that Hitler was a better orator than Obama isn't very strong objection. Listening to what Oba's supporters say, they are impressed largely by his broad brush ideas of empowerment and hope, plus admiration for his oratorical skills, "charisma" and his ability to work a crowd. I think perhaps more than has been discussed in this bad tempered thread, also by his promise to tax those who have to give to "those who don't". Class warfare is never very attractive to me, but it may be to others, depending on whether they are likely to be counted in the taken-from or the given-to.

Remember, I was not comparing Obama to Hitler's career- only to their early appeal to voters. And certainly there are large differences. I only intended to highlight the fact that crowd appeal is found in many people, and it doesn't necessarily correlate at all with fitness to govern. Hitler was chosen because he certainly illustrates in an extreme way that charisma is at best a double-edged sword.

I think a focus on proven history is more reliable. With Hillary or McCain, you do at least have a history of doing things, making testable assertions that can be checked against their performance over a long period of time.

You must know that the Farrakhan thing has been around for a long time. Whether it is important or meaningless, I don't know. Unless you are close to the situation, I doubt you do either.

Also, I won't guess as to whether you are serious or just debating. I find that sort of guessing a bit offensive. After all, this is a political thread, and the essence of American politics is debate. With any other candidate in this as well as any other election that I can remember, everything was on the table.

It might be that Mr. Obama will be given a bye on various issues. Maybe he should be, given the many people who seem to be transported by his "message of hope"

My only real message is that we should look before we leap. It seems that there area lot of unknowns in Mr. Obama's candidacy. Perhaps these will be filled in over time. I hope prior to the election.

Ha
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Old 02-17-2008, 07:11 PM   #45
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I can't say any of the current crop o' candidates fill me with hope...
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Old 02-17-2008, 08:13 PM   #46
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You must know that the Farrakhan thing has been around for a long time. Whether it is important or meaningless, I don't know. Unless you are close to the situation, I doubt you do either.

Also, I won't guess as to whether you are serious or just debating. I find that sort of guessing a bit offensive. After all, this is a political thread, and the essence of American politics is debate. With any other candidate in this as well as any other election that I can remember, everything was on the table.

It might be that Mr. Obama will be given a bye on various issues. Maybe he should be, given the many people who seem to be transported by his "message of hope"

My only real message is that we should look before we leap. It seems that there area lot of unknowns in Mr. Obama's candidacy. Perhaps these will be filled in over time. I hope prior to the election.

Ha
How has the Farrahkan thing been around for a long time? Obama hasn't been buddy-buddy with Louis Farrahkan over the years. In fact, Obama has distanced himself from Farrahkan much the same way that Bill Clinton and other leaders have done to other notorious, popular blacks when trying to cultivate a very wide base of support.

Everything is on the table and I'm sure we'll find out more about the candidates. And the media and the public might be enthralled by Obama's candidacy, for very obvious reasons, but we can be assured that he won't be getting the pass on scrutiny over the next few months that his opponents say he's getting.

Campaign issues aside, I think we are enthralled by Obama because his acceptability as a serious candidate says a lot about us all and there's a Horatio Alger quality to his ascendancy. (You can also say that Obama, like Hitler, also raised himself by his own bootstraps too, but few of us would think that was casting Obama in a favorable light or a meaningful comparison. )
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Old 02-17-2008, 09:40 PM   #47
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You can also say that Obama, like Hitler, also raised himself by his own bootstraps too, but few of us would think that was casting Obama in a favorable light or a meaningful comparison. )
Then why do YOU bring it up? It seems like there is enough controversy in this discussion without proposing a comparison and then denying it all in the same sentence.
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Old 02-17-2008, 10:34 PM   #48
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(putting on moderator hat) But Obama is the only one talking about what I believe is really important -- we must fix the process and we must all work together to do so. We cannot afford to retreat back to the politics of personal destruction so rampant in the last 20 years. Unless we bring this nation together, all the policies in the world will not solve our problems. The people are ready for a change, and, no, it can't wait another eight years.
Well said, Gumby. I believe that this is the sentiment expressed in the song/video. Granted it's not heavy weight intellectualism. But people are not always moved to action by intellectualism. Often it takes sentiment and, yes, inspiration, to move people to right action. This is what is needed now, I believe, and the evidence is blatantly apparent in this thread.

There is so much acrimony between those of differing views! I am, actually, really saddened that a song/video of young people expressing hope for change can bring out such cynicism and anger from people who are 30-40 years their seniors.

It is OUR reponsibility to get our house in order. There are serious problems now that have come about because our two parties cannot agree to work together. Instead, we have endless war, spending out of control, a debt escalating beyond sustainability, social security and medicare expenses that threaten to swamp our economy.

I challenge anyone to spend some time at this site Fiscal Wake Up Tour and then come back here and complain that your taxes might go up if a Democrat wins. Please also explain your reasoning as well.

It's time to be grownups and stop arguing about every little thing that doesn't please us and that is not to one's own benefit. I'm talking to both parties and I'm trying to take my own advice too. I'm really asking seriously for everyone to take a deep breath and look at the bigger picture. The younger generations deserve a brighter future than the one that we are currently leaving them.
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Old 02-17-2008, 11:16 PM   #49
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Then why do YOU bring it up? It seems like there is enough controversy in this discussion without proposing a comparison and then denying it all in the same sentence.
Why did I bring it up? To prove it is as ludicrous a point as was made before about Obama and Hitler coming from no where!!!!
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Old 02-18-2008, 02:49 AM   #50
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For you and those others who mumble about "lack of substance", I would suggest you look at his website barackobama.com, under "issues".
I did go and take a look. I didn't find the "meat" you suggested I would find (whether or not I find more substance on the sites of other candidates is irrelevant) but there were a couple positions I liked:


Quote:
Obama will remove incentives to enter the country illegally by cracking down on employers who hire undocumented immigrants.
</H4>
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Amend the North American Free Trade Agreement: Obama believes that NAFTA and its potential were oversold to the American people. Obama will work with the leaders of Canada and Mexico to fix NAFTA so that it works for American workers.
I would hope that if he is nominated he will provide significant additional details to these and other positions as part of his campaign.
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Old 02-18-2008, 04:34 AM   #51
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For the Dems. It is probably a matter of electability. Hillary is much more likely to get the independent vote. Obama's strong showing is in part due to the {majority} of the minority vote going to Obama.

Each Dem that votes for Obama has the net effect of causing some independent to vote for McCain.

If Obama get the Dem nomination: Once the two parties square off in the general election... People will really begin to inspect each individual. Many will have second thoughts about Obama.

Obama is too liberal (read socialist)! Plus, why vote for an unknown? Who cares what he says. Words are easy. They all make outrageous pledges. A track record is important. It is a record of actions.

None of the candidates are exactly what I want. They all fall short on a number of issues.

On Iraq. McCain will pull out of Iraq once it is stable. Matter of fact that is what they will all do including Hillary. We will have a presence there for a while. Otherwise we will be back in there trying to sort out the mess again.

My fear about Obama is a bunch of new social programs. Look at his poverty page! This may sound a little cold hearted. But I believe in self-reliance. This is not a third-world country. Most people in this country have opportunity to help themselves. We have enough social programs to fix the poor. At some point, they have to help themselves. It is pretty simple "TRY".

Yes there are some that fall through the cracks. That will happen no matter how much money we throw at it.

I view medicare and SS differently. These are programs that we working people have paid into for our entire working lives. It is not an entitlement. Rather it is a pension and medical insurance program that we paid for!
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Old 02-18-2008, 08:37 AM   #52
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For the Dems. It is probably a matter of electability. Hillary is much more likely to get the independent vote. Obama's strong showing is in part due to the {majority} of the minority vote going to Obama.
Have to disagree on that point. I think you will find a number of Obama voters in the primary (mostly independents and cross over Republicans) who would never vote for Clinton in the general election. Among moderates, it will be a horse race between Obama and McCain, but I think McCain wins hands down if Clinton is the Dem nominee (and that's what the polls show).
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Old 02-18-2008, 09:00 AM   #53
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Have to disagree on that point. I think you will find a number of Obama voters in the primary (mostly independents and cross over Republicans) who would never vote for Clinton in the general election. Among moderates, it will be a horse race between Obama and McCain, but I think McCain wins hands down if Clinton is the Dem nominee (and that's what the polls show).
If he gets the nomination, we will see how it turns out.

The obvious concern is that Obama may be a bit of a closet Sharpton/Jackson. That is enough to put many off.

Remember, even the Democratic party is split.

We are independents. Neither DW or I plan to vote for Obama. Put it like this to vote for Obama would require some huge scandal about McCain (not likely)

If Obama is nominated, he will get the hardcore Dem vote for sure (those that vote the party). Moderate Demcrats may defect. Independents (more in the middle... hybrid Republocrats or Demublicans whichever) will likely lean toward McCain (Seen as a moderate republican). Most Republicans will vote McCain. The funny thing is that most Republicans are not happy with McCain. But you can bet they will rally around him when the election happens (just like the hardcore dems for whomever is nominated).

This may be a tough thing for you to swallow. But it is very likely. Hillary is correct on her electability comment. Many view her as a safer bet.
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We May Have Left Ourselves With Three Poor Choices
Old 02-18-2008, 09:22 AM   #54
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We May Have Left Ourselves With Three Poor Choices

Somehow we wound up with three senators running. An old one, a medium old one, and a young and very inexperienced one.

Senators have proven their ability to get elected, and usually to get re-elected. Also to more or less keep their feet out of their mouths. While some senators have done a lot more, our current crop of candidates perhaps not yet. So while senatorial experience might be helpful, particularly if it includes chairing some of the more powerful committees, it really isn’t a line job as the presidency is.

Here is the first potential candidate I have seen mentioned that makes sense, and from my POV she would possibly be the best prepared presidential candidate in a very long time: Condoleezza Rice.

http://voterice.wikia.com/wiki/Condoleezza_Rice?useskin=monobook&save=true

Other draft candidates that I have heard mentioned - Gore and Mike Bloomberg- sound no better to me than the ones we already have running.

Any headhunter in America when looking at her resume would think here is someone qualified to run America.

I guess she may have thought that she would be too tainted by association with Bush’s unpopular Near East decisions to stand a chance, but I am not so sure. A lot of Bush’s unpopularity may be due to his odd manner- something which Condoleezza does not have.

I suppose she may be a running mate for McCain, but I would prefer to see her head the ticket.

Ha
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Old 02-18-2008, 09:24 AM   #55
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Here is the first potential candidate I have seen mentioned that makes sense, and from my POV she would possibly be the best prepared presidential candidate in a very long time: Condoleezza Rice.

...

I guess she may have thought that she would be too tainted by association with Bush’s unpopular Near East decisions to stand a chance, but I am not so sure. A lot of Bush’s unpopularity may be due to his odd manner- something which Condoleezza does not have.
I think that's the problem, too -- excess baggage by association with an unpopular presidency. I wouldn't rule out Condi in the future, but she may need a few years to rehabilitate her image as something other than a Bush puppet. I think she's more than that -- a lot more -- but that will likely be the opinion of much of the electorate, at least for now.
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Old 02-18-2008, 02:11 PM   #56
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Amigo, you are doing the ad hominem boogie. If the moderators are listening, they might consider warning you. I didn't call you a jerk, and I won't here. If you need to come at me like this, you must be out of relevant rational statements to make. Or you really are feeling like your man doesn't have much substantive to be said about him.

In America, as far as I know, you don't ban political speech, especially when true. What I said was absolutely true. I didn't say Obama was the moral equivalent of Hitler. That would take some doing for sure. We don't really know much about Obama, as the Germans didn't really know much about Hitler. But what I cited is a simple fact. They both came out of nowhere with powerful speaking abilities, the ability to marshal charisma and personal power and a message for hope and change to a nation feeling kind of battered

But Adolph captivated a country every bit as sophisticated and advanced as ours, if not more so. He was not the product of a military overthrow. His platform was very attractive, hope, social justice, and other familiar sounding themes from this years primary campaign. What is Hillary complaining about all the time? That Obama talks pretty and says nothing of substance. Clearly he is well coached, as the best approach to the idiot American electorate is to smile, be tall, and not say anything or have done anything that your opponents could focus on during the campaign. I find hilarious the offering of Oba's "experience" in the Illinois State Legislature as meaningful experience making someone suitable to be a president of the United States.

If he is so good, wouldn't he still be good eight years from now when is no longer an act of faith and desperate hope? The Dems are likely to win; how would Obama be better than Hillary? Hillary does have a history. Obama has a website.

I didn't say anything about Obama and anti-Semitism, because I don't know anything about that. Though the Louis Farrakhan connection might be worrisome to some.

Republicans have had to listen to their leaders being called fascists for years.

As to your slap at my concern for increased taxes- at least I have interests in the election more real than "hope". I donít look to politics to give my life meaning. That I can keep them just a little bit out of my pocket is all I ever expect.

I cede hope to you, amigo; I'll take something more substantial.

BTW, if you are interested in some parallels between modern US style liberalism and the National Socialism of Germany, a good recent book by an LA Times reporter is Liberal Fascism by Eli Goldberg. But I don't imagine you have time for investigating what you are spouting about; just time for attacking me.

Ha
As for your reference to Farakkan, you are employing the classic smear tactics and swiftboating. Your Hitler comparison is tasteless and dispicable and was done for only one reason which I don't have to point out to you. Your implication that people are falling for Obama because he is charismatic and gives good speeches like Hitler is preposterous. Why did you not liken him to other great American leaders like JFK? Why Hitler? Are you suggesting that Americans should be afraid of him because he reminds them of Hitler? This country has been very close to Hitler's Germany a few times in its history but for some reason you're not pointing out the presidents that made that possible? I guess you don't know of any other politicians in the US that you can liken to Hitler? Huh? BTW, Obama did not just come from nowhere. He's been an Illinois Senator for 8 years and has done some really good things for that state. That doesn't count in your book or does it? What qualifies someone to be president?
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Old 02-18-2008, 02:14 PM   #57
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What do you know about this man other than words on a site and a few speeches?

He has very little track record. Hillary had it right when she said that she has been vetted.

People know Clinton and McCain. Obama can say anything... because he has little to no track record.

Q: What is the quickest way for the Democratic party to jeopardize the 2008 election?
A: Endorse an unknown.

We are independents.

I have not made my mind up yet.

DW says she is voting for Hillary. If Hillary doesn't make it to the General Election, she says she is voting for McCain. Will she change her mind closer to the election? Possibly, but I doubt it.
What qualifies Hillary more than Obama? Being the wife of a president? Well I guess the wife of a doctor must be qualified to be a doctor herself.
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Old 02-18-2008, 02:18 PM   #58
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(putting on moderator hat) Can we all please remember that we are among friends here? It is possible for us to disagree without being disagreeable. Let us not resort to ad hominem attacks and insults. I hereby chastise myself for my remark to cantlogin.

(taking off moderator hat)

For me, the choice now is relatively easy. I long ago made the decision that I would never vote for anyone who supported the war. McCain seems truly to have believed and still believes that the Iraq war was and is necessary. I think he is wrong, so I won't vote for him, but I respect his belief. Clinton's vote to authorize the war was, in my opinion, nothing but political posturing. She saw which way the wind was blowing, knew that she would eventually run for president and did not want to be seen as weak on defense, so she voted in favor. It is telling that she never read the NIE. It is one thing to be honest but mistaken in taking the nation to war. It is quite another to send the children of others to die in order to serve your own political ambition. I find that unforgivable. I believe that Clinton's action in this regard should trouble even those who support the war.

As far as their positions on various issues go, I acknowledge that Clinton and Obama are very close. I also recognize that I do not agree with either of them on everything. If anything, I think Obama is not liberal enough. In any event, as others have pointed out, there is always a wide gulf between what a candidate has for aspirations and what actually can be accomplished once in Washington. But Obama is the only one talking about what I believe is really important -- we must fix the process and we must all work together to do so. We cannot afford to retreat back to the politics of personal destruction so rampant in the last 20 years. Unless we bring this nation together, all the policies in the world will not solve our problems. The people are ready for a change, and, no, it can't wait another eight years.

Those who say McCain and Clinton have a record are right, they do. But neither one is something I would be proud of (caveat - I'm not talking about McCain's service in the Navy, only his time as a Senator).
Nice nice post Gumby. You truly seem like someone without an ax grind and someone really thinking about the issues. You better watch out because the reactionaries on here may just label you as the kool aid drinker.
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Old 02-18-2008, 02:21 PM   #59
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Nice nice post Gumby. You truly seem like someone without an ax grind and someone really thinking about the issues. You better watch out because the reactionaries on here may just label you as the kool aid drinker.
You should learn that everyone might not agree with you. It might help you with a few of those anger issues you have.
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Old 02-18-2008, 02:21 PM   #60
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Straight from Obama's Web Site:



2 years in the Senate .... hasn't balanced a budget larger than his checkbook or managed a workforce larger than his personal staff.

I expect more credentials from the leader of the free world.
Don't worry; the leader of the free world can't be everything at the same time. That's why they have a staff. I hope you didn't vote for George Bush because he had no foreign affairs experience when he was elected. In fact, he had never been outside of North America. This should be a prerequisite for anyone wanting to run for president. That explains why he mucked up the world. When you hold the scrutiny bulb up to Obama, I hope you're doing the same for all the other politicians, especially those you like.
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