Interested in some McCain background?

[Nords]

Originally Posted by clifp

Correct me if I am wrong but my understanding is that Annapolis class ranks is function of GPA and demerits. I believe McCain did respectably in academics but darn near lead the class in demerits.

No, you're right. But even though he managed to rack up some legendary liberty runs, academics counts for the majority of the class standing today and perhaps was the same system waaaaay back then.

If he'd been an "A" or "B" student his conduct would maybe have dragged him down to the bottom half or even bottom third, but the fact that he ended up that low gives an indication that his GPA wasn't so good either.

I wonder if a FOIA request can get his transcript exhumed.

[ladelfina]

Good luck. There's already a tremendous backlog, and Bush has been playing new games with FOIA:

[1/31/08] This week, funds for the Office of Government Information Services, which handles FOIA requests, were transferred to the Department of Justice. The Department of Justice is much more subject to influence by the White House—so much so that they may not even carry out the basic FOIA-related functions of the previous office. “By shifting the funding to the Justice Department, OMB would effectively eliminate the office, because it appears no similar operation would be created there,” according to an aide to Sen. Pat Leahy (D-VT).

Think Again: Your Government: Access Denied

Even when documents were not withheld de jure, administration officials often withheld them de facto. When People for the American Way sought documents on prisoners’ cases being litigated in secret, the Justice Department required it to pay $373,000 in search fees before officials would even look. “It’s become much, much harder to get responses to FOIA requests, and it’s taking much, much longer,” David Schulz, the attorney who helps the Associated Press with FOIA requests, explained to a reporter. “Agencies seem to view their role as coming up with techniques to keep information secret rather than the other way around. That’s completely contrary to the goal of the act.”

The Federation of American Scientists Project on Government Secrecy notes that “Over the past nine years, the number of FOIA requests processed has fallen 20 percent, the number of FOIA personnel is down 10 percent, the backlog [of pending requests] has tripled, and costs of handling a request are up 79 percent.”

Responding to pressure over the abuse of the FOIA Act, Bush issued an executive order in December 2005 mandating that agencies respond better to FOIA requests. But little progress was made. The Department of Justice issued a report attempting to show progress on the issue, but it approached farce, with statistics and graphics in the report contradicting the claims made on the previous page. The DOJ reported that more than half of the agencies successfully met their FOIA milestones, “and that 90 percent made meaningful progress.” But the report’s graphics show that only 11 of 25 agencies met all their milestones, and three agencies did not meet a single target.

There's something uniquely modern-Republican-math about those figures:
10% less staff; 20% fewer requests processed; 179% costs

Heckuvajob, Brownie!

[Milton]

Originally Posted by clifp

Correct me if I am wrong but my understanding is that Annapolis class ranks are a function of GPA and demerits.

Yes, that's true. But then, the academies have always been more glorified boy scout camps than genuine universities. Remember Winston Churchill's comments regarding West Point (as quoted in Randolph S. Churchill, Winston S. Churchill, Volume One - Youth, page 270):

I am sure you will be horrified by some of the Regulations of the Military Academy. The cadets enter from 19-22 and stay four years. That means they are most of them 24 years of age. They are not allowed to smoke or have any money in their possession, nor are they given any leave except two months after the first two years. In fact they have far less liberty than any private school boys in our country.

I think such a state of things is positively disgraceful, and young men of 24 or 25 who would resign their personal liberty to such an extent can never make good citizens or fine soldiers. A child who rebels agains that sort of control should be whipped - so should a man who does not rebel.

[cute fuzzy bunny]

Hmmm, I hadnt seen anything that correlated poor grades in school with job performance.

In fact, I know lots of people who did poorly in academics become extremely successful people, and people who excelled in academics who couldnt do much after graduation.

[ChrisC]

Academic transcripts are not available to the public. The Family Educational Rights and Privacy Act prevents this disclosure of records for most schools. And the Federal Privacy Act prevents disclosure for U.S. Service Academies.

John Kerry belatedly had his academic transcript released at Yale, which I believed indicated his academic achievement was slightly lower than George Bush, Jr, the so-called village idiot!

Once a student reaches 18, only the student has access to his academic records, and USNA is no exception to this rule: even the official sponsoring an appointment to a service academy does not have access to a the student's records.

BTW, class rank at USNA is heavily weighted toward academic achievement though there are professional/military and extra-curricular components to the class ranking. I don't know about the service academies not being genuine universities. I was quite impressed with the academic rigor at USNA. And I don't know of many other schools where an English major graduates with an engineering degree. A great account of life at these academies is Lipisky's Absolutely American: Fours Years at West Point, which follows the USMA Class of 2002 and was written by a Rolling Stone magazine reporter.

[Orchidflower]

Agree that leadership ability is so much more important in life than academic ability; but, let's admit it, comedians have had a field day with GWB's C average. Yes, of course, there is often an inverse relationship to how much education and how well one does in school to how well one does in the "real" world; hence, many high school dropouts make gobs of money while the class valedictorian doesn't.
McCain's low status in college due to his demerits despite decent academics somehow doesn't surprise me and seems pretty consistent with his personality now.
By the way, just before I went back to college, I worked for a guy who dated Linda Bird Johnson. He is mentioned, in fact, in Lady Bird's autobiography, so he was around their living quarters alot. Johnson, being the Southern gentleman he was (cough, cough), used to talk to HIM while he was on the toilet. The guy I worked for was a really WASPie, uptight lawyer, and was so freaked out about it that he still was in shock when I met him. The visuals alone were pretty funny to me and about the only enjoyment I had while working for him, too.

[FinanceDude]

Originally Posted by cute fuzzy bunny

Hmmm, I hadnt seen anything that correlated poor grades in school with job performance.

In fact, I know lots of people who did poorly in academics become extremely successful people

Might you be talking in the 3rd person here?

Some of the wealthiest folks I ever met had an 8th grade education.........

[cute fuzzy bunny]

I wouldnt be that subtle but I do fit the description.

Being able to memorize, theorize and get good test scores in a structured environment has little to do with leading, performing in a job, or being successful.

[Nords]

Originally Posted by Milton

Yes, that's true. But then, the academies have always been more glorified boy scout camps than genuine universities. Remember Winston Churchill's comments regarding West Point (as quoted in Randolph S. Churchill, Winston S. Churchill, Volume One - Youth, page 270):

Aw, c'mon. This year's crop of Rhodes scholars (and other scholarship recipients) from service academies might be surprised to hear that they got their chops at a "glorified boy person scout camp"-- even USAFA. Other "genuine universities" seemed pretty happy to accept the transfer transcripts from service academies, too.

A child who rebels agains that sort of control should be whipped - so should a man who does not rebel.

If there's one thing that I learned from USNA, it's how to most effectively break the rules.

[Milton]

No point in the two of us arguing about this unimportant issue, which in any case is largely subjective. Let's agree to disagree.

[SoonToRetire]

Originally Posted by Nords

even USAFA.

Did you mean, "especially USAFA?"

Actually, not many civilian univesities would turn out any Rhodes scholars if their students could only study 1/3 of the time and were forced to engage in athletics or mindless stuff professional training the other 2/3.

[Milton]

Originally Posted by SoonToRetire

Actually, not many civilian univesities would turn out any Rhodes scholars if their students could only study 1/3 of the time and were forced to engage in athletics or mindless stuff professional training the other 2/3.

Drill builds character.

[Gumby]

Originally Posted by Milton

But then, the academies have always been more glorified boy scout camps than genuine universities.

Your evidence?

[TBPu]

Gumby,
your question is directed at Milton but I will chime in to say, here in Sunnyvale, the military academies are considered anything but. There are many great things the military academy graduates will accomplish, academia is not one of them and neither is business, science, or technology, so I think the title Military Academy says it all. Boy Scout to soldier training. Lots of emphasis on things not academic, no emphasis on furthering knowldege, more a furthering of warrior mentality. Winston Churchill was fairly well educated and I respect his aspersion as well intentioned.

[Milton]

Gumby, please see my previous posts.

I'm not particularly interested in getting into an argument, which would serve no purpose and will just cause unnecessary hard feelings.

If anyone believes the service academies are top academic institutions, that's fine with me ... we are all entitled to our own opinions.

P.S. Regarding Winston Churchill: he was a graduate of Sandhurst, so he knew a thing or two about military academies. While he was well-educated, he was essentially self-taught via books and did quite poorly in formal education (see generally My Early Life). His command of English developed largely because his masters at Harrow judged him too dim to cope with Latin and Greek!

[Gumby]

Dear Milton and TBPu:

Opinions, even those of Sir Winston, are not evidence.

I suppose that a proper answer to the question would require a longitudinal study of the success of military academy graduates versus the success of graduates from the "elite" universities. Unfortunately, I do not believe such data currently exist, and it would be a very difficult study to undertake, if it were possible at all. We are therefore left to the realm of anecdote. I could list the names of many graduates of my own alma mater, the United States Naval Academy, who have been extremely successful in a wide variety of fields other than the military, including specifically science, business and technology (and many others). I will forbear, however, as you can find the information yourselves if you care to look.

My own opinion arises from direct personal experience in both worlds. I am a graduate of the Yale Law School, which is considered by most to be the best law school in the U.S. (It is certainly the most selective). I found that my undergraduate preparation was equal or superior to that of my law school classmates who had attended the most elite colleges and universities, in this country and abroad.

I do not know where either one of you went to university, but I suspect that it was not a military academy. You will forgive me, but I find it difficult to credit your opinions when they appear unsupported by either personal experience or objective evidence.

That said, Gentlemen, you are welcome to your own opinions on the subject. I will not trouble you with any further argument.

Best wishes,

Gumby

[Marquette]

List of United States Military Academy alumni - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Royal Military Academy Sandhurst - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

List of United States Naval Academy alumni - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

https://www.nrotc.navy.mil/famousgrades.cfm

Now all we need to do is compile and correlate. I've done the hard work, though!

[SoonToRetire]

Originally Posted by Milton

Gumby, please see my previous posts.
...
If anyone believes the service academies are top academic institutions, that's fine with me ... we are all entitled to our own opinions.

Gentlemen

I also have no interest in arguing this matter, but would like to express my opinion based on my involvement with service academies in a previous life that I don't really want to rehash.

Many valid points have been made. The question of the academic value of military academies is not an easy one. Many studies have been made by private and public groups, all the way to Congress, with no clear answers, but with continuous attention paid to preservation and improvement of academic standards. Each Academy has a Board of Visitors that includes some of the nations' top academics who pay close attention to preserving the academy's standings commensurate with their goals and the quality of their incoming students. Also, keep in mind that the academies are undergraduate institutions, and it's fair to compare them with other undergraduate schools, but not with graduate programs.

A few observations.

The academies have little problem attracting the cream of the crop among high school students, and are among the most selective in the nation. Even though they are not purely academic institutions, they hold their own year in and year out in national rankings. USAFA, for example, is usually rated at the top of undergraduate engineering schools in the nation, and was recently rated the top in the west in the US News & World Report on America's Best Colleges.

That having been said, the academies don't, nor do they want to, compete with MIT, Cal Tech, or Harvard in attracting and selecting the top pure academic talent. In fact, they would not be likely to admit a straight - A student if that individual lacked interest in a military career or lacked a well-rounded personality -- they would probably suggest to that individual that they should instead apply to one of the previously mentioned schools.

Military academies are there for one purpose only -- to provide to the nation the best and most capable military officers possible. Whether they do this is a case for a different debate but not debatable is that, while producing military officers, they also do a fair job of filling a large number of Rhodes, Fullbright, and other programs. West Point is 4th in the nation in the number of Rhodes Scholars, for example.

Do MIT or Cal Tech produce a better research scientist than a military academy? Probably, as well they should, since that conforms closer to their role. That's not to say that a graduate from a civilian institution is any smarter or more capable of accomplishing greatness, just that they may have obtained a more specialized academic education.

By the way, I'm not a graduate of an academy, but am a retired military officer. I did learn certain academic subjects at more depth, but I had the luxury of dedicating my time to those subjects (that is, when I wasn't wasting my time drinking beer). That's the double edged sword of the academies -- the intensive training they provide across all areas comes at the expense of restricting personal time and, one might argue, personal growth.

This is one of the themes that periodically arises in studies of military academies -- and the results are usually as expected -- that cadets obtain a first-class education as well as tremendous training in athletics and leadership of others, but they fall behind their civilian counterparts in personal maturity because they haven't had the opportunity to explore dead ends and learn from hard knocks. That may have been what Churchill was referring to, and I agree with part of his premise but not his conclusion.

As I said, this is a very difficult topic, but whatever one's opinion, there's little doubt in my own mind that academies have, and produce, some of the best talent in America.