Interested in some McCain background?

[Orchidflower]

I found this interesting mainly because I didn't know McCain graduated from the Naval Academy 394 out of 399.
Also, note he tried to commit suicide at the Hanoi Hilton.
There is some information altho brief on his receiving praise for his conduct in captivity in Vietnam, whereas others were disciplined, with the implication being that he was praised due to his father and grandfather's military status.
Very interesting.....hmmmmmmm.....I wonder if this stuff is going to be used during the campaign by the opponent?

John McCain

[Nords]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orchidflower I found this interesting mainly because I didn't know McCain graduated from the Naval Academy 394 out of 399.

Considering the behavior he details in his biography, I'm surprised he graduated that high.

Hey, Gumby, a USNA graduate claims that his company officer was pickin' on him!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orchidflower Also, note he tried to commit suicide at the Hanoi Hilton. There is some information altho brief on his receiving praise for his conduct in captivity in Vietnam, whereas others were disciplined, with the implication being that he was praised due to his father and grandfather's military status. Very interesting.....hmmmmmmm.....I wonder if this stuff is going to be used during the campaign by the opponent?

While factual, they manage to imply that he behaved less honorably than other POWs. That's an impressive editorial effort, but it's a bit at odds with the biographical info presented in Timberg's & McCain's books.

When these "who did what in Hanoi" issues come up, IMO the best reference is how that person is treated by fellow POWs. They know the difference, and it'd be interesting to hear if any former POWs have spoken up about McCain like Kerry's former shipmates leaped on him. If we haven't heard from guys like Stockdale, Galanti, and Coffee over the years then I suspect McCain wasn't an issue.

I can't tell if the website did crappy research or edited out some info. I'm surprised that they passed up the opportunity to discuss cardiac problems among former POWs. McCain was a legendary drinker & womanizer even by Navy aviation standards, which isn't done justice by the phrase "ladies' man". They also didn't explain how he retired from the Navy and then deliberately shopped around the country to find a political race that he could win. Maybe these things aren't considered unusual among the other candidates, either...

[Orchidflower]

Thanks, Nords, for bringing up the good point that others at Hanoi Hilton would "know."
My friend's father was in the Bataan Death March during WWII, a POW for 3 years, 6'4" and 86 lbs. when released (causing him to be hospitalized like 2 years). He wrote the very long poem about how one of his "buddies" sold him out for a bowl of rice. So, I agree with you...the others at the Hanoi Hilton would know.
I'm going to make it my point to read his biography now. Thanks.
And, yeah...as a woman speaking, I can see how McCain could have been a womanizer when he was young. He was awfully good looking (women are pigs, too, you know).

[W2R]

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Originally Posted by Orchidflower I can see how McCain could have been a womanizer when he was young. He was awfully good looking

Was? Was? Somehow guys with white hair look a lot better to me now than they did 20 years ago.

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Originally Posted by Orchidflower (women are pigs, too, you know).

Sometimes we are - that's for sure!

Our primaries are tomorrow and I still haven't decided who I will vote for. It's a lot easier to decide who to vote against, but then after deciding that, there's nobody left.

[RunningBum]

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Originally Posted by Orchidflower Thanks, Nords, for bringing up the good point that others at Hanoi Hilton would "know." My friend's father was in the Bataan Death March during WWII, a POW for 3 years, 6'4" and 86 lbs. when released (causing him to be hospitalized like 2 years). He wrote the very long poem about how one of his "buddies" sold him out for a bowl of rice. So, I agree with you...the others at the Hanoi Hilton would know.

Is your friend's father still alive? I'm doing the Bataan Death March marathon run at the end of March at White Sands, New Mexico. They have films and displays and such about it, and you get to meet some of the survivors. I'm very much looking forward to it.

[Gumby]

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Originally Posted by Orchidflower I'm going to make it my point to read his biography now.

You might also want to read Robert Timberg's book The Nightingale's Song. Lots of interesting stuff about McCain, Oliver North, and James Webb.

[ChrisC]

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Originally Posted by Nords They know the difference, and it'd be interesting to hear if any former POWs have spoken up about McCain like Kerry's former shipmates leaped on him.

Only one of Kerry's former shipmates leaped on Kerry for his service and this view is unsupported by the weight of others who actually served with Kerry in his swift boat. Swift Boat Veterans Speak Out Against John Kerry - Netlore Archive.

[HFWR]

But if we learned anything from Karl Rove, it's this: He who lies first wins...

[Gumby]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nords Considering the behavior he details in his biography, I'm surprised he graduated that high. Hey, Gumby, a USNA graduate claims that his company officer was pickin' on him!

I am shocked, shocked I tell you!

[Notmuchlonger]

"I wonder if this stuff is going to be used during the campaign by the opponent?"


That would be political suicide if they did.

[FinanceDude]

Hey a war hero married into money, I see a movie in that someday........

[Khan]

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Originally Posted by FinanceDude Hey a war hero married into money, I see a movie in that someday........

Is his second wife pro-family?

[clifp]

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Originally Posted by FinanceDude Hey a war hero married into money, I see a movie in that someday........

Actually, I think the more likely, case reading the between lines of various McCain books, is good looking charismatic naval aviator and war hero, meets gorgeous blonde. (I think Cindy is great looking gal now at (52), when she was 25 I'm sure she was spectacular) Chemistry happens and as an added bonus she is rich.



John Kerry's wife Theresa is also rich, and she is certainly an interesting woman, but not good looking, IMO

[MooreBonds]

Quote:

Originally Posted by clifp

Hmmmm.....let's see: your wife is extremely beautiful, extremely rich, and you have no need to do ANYTHING the rest of your life -except spend a lot of time 'enjoying her company'.

And you end up spending all of your time arguing politics with other politicians who couldn't tell the truth if their life depended on it?

Anyone else left scratching their head over this one?

[ladelfina]

Quote:

"I wonder if this stuff is going to be used during the campaign by the opponent?" That would be political suicide if they did.

The far right seems OUTraged by McCain.. and it's the wingnut R fringe that has been dredging this stuff up so far, not the Dems.

The Raw Story | Anti-McCain vets ready salvo against Senator's presidential campaign
TPMmuckraker | Talking Points Memo | Swift Boat Vet "Appalled" by McCain Smear
Ross Perot Slams McCain | Newsweek Voices - Jonathan Alter | Newsweek.com
Covert History

They haven't gotten into the Keating 5 affair much yet. (Will be interesting when that comes back out into the light.)

That said, I think it's low to base an opinion solely on how someone behaved under the most inhuman of conditions. I'm sure we'd all like to think we'd come out with our morals and principals intact; it would be great if we did.. but is it likely? I guess you could see it as the ultimate litmus test of character, but more telling, to me, are the corners you cut when selling out isn't a matter of life and death, just standard operating procedure --another day at the office.

Fox News recently labeled McCain a Democrat (they made this 'mistake', too, with Foley and Specter.. whenever some R falls out of their good graces..).

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They will blame the loss on the fact that McCain wasn't a real conservative (just like Bush.) They know when to fall back and regroup. They're already playing for the next election. Everybody sing: Conservatism can never fail, it can only be failed.

Hullabaloo

It's sorta weird to see the Rs eating their own to this degree. The "conservatives" just seem to keep moving the bar ever right-ward and seem surprised and offended that the average R voter is not following them off the cliff.

They keep incanting "Reagan, Reagan, Reagan".. but if Reagan were in front of them today, he'd be seen as too liberal!! (just as Nixon would be, to an even greater extent). McCain seems to have always been politically in the Reagan zone; it's the R party pundits that have shifted rightward. In invoking Reagan, I don't think their crazy zeal and short attention span allows them the liberty of analysis: Reagan skedaddled from Lebanon and -more important for purposes of this discussion- gave amnesty to illegals, let's not forget. For the Rs, this stuff has gone into the memory hole along with so much else.

[clifp]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ladelfina The far right seems OUTraged by McCain.. and it's the wingnut R fringe that has been dredging this stuff up so far, not the Dems. It's sorta weird to see the Rs eating their own to this degree. The "conservatives" just seem to keep moving the bar ever right-ward and seem surprised and offended that the average R voter is not following them off the cliff. They keep incanting "Reagan, Reagan, Reagan".. but if Reagan were in front of them today, he'd be seen as too liberal!! (just as Nixon would be, to an even greater extent). McCain seems to have always been politically in the Reagan zone; it's the R party pundits that have shifted rightward. In invoking Reagan, I don't think their crazy zeal and short attention span allows them the liberty of analysis: Reagan skedaddled from Lebanon and -more important for purposes of this discussion- gave amnesty to illegals, let's not forget. For the Rs, this stuff has gone into the memory hole along with so much else.

Ladelfina, while I think we'd disagree on a fair amount on politics. I think your analysis is right on. I come from a politically active California Republican family (both Grandfathers active in a various party organization, my dad a Goldwater delegate and was urged to run for Congress) they were huge Reagan fans and meet the man numerous times. I am sure all three are rolling over in their graves at some of the stuff being said in Reagan's name. It is pretty clear to me that if Ronald Reagan was running today (or Barry Goldwater) that they be pilloried as too liberal by the extreme elements.


I remember my Grandfather Bozzy, who I revered, told me he pulled out of Republican party activity when many of his organizations were taken over by the John Birch Society. I see same thing happening today with talk radio, and the right wing bloggers. It is fortunate that average Republican isn't falling for this vitriolic spewing.

On the other side of the aisle the moveon.org and Berkeley city council folks are just as bad when the start comparing the administration to Nazi etc.

If I was God, I'd round up all of the right wing nutters give them a gun and ship them off to Afghanistan and Iraq, and I send all the Moveon.org types to the workers paradises in Cuba, North Korea, and guess Venezuela. The hater on both sides are really bad for this country.

[brewer12345]

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Originally Posted by ladelfina The far right seems OUTraged by McCain.. and it's the wingnut R fringe that has been dredging this stuff up so far, not the Dems.

Isn't it delicious to watch your politicalopponents devour each other and publicly fling poop at the front runner even after he has decidedly won the contest? No need to get your hands dirty when your opponent is so bent on beating himself to a bloody pulp. Reminds me of the Rethuglican Congress in the months leading up to the last election when both houses changed hands. Democrats generally just kept their mouths shut and smiled while their opponents disintegrated in public.

[FinanceDude]

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Originally Posted by brewer12345 Isn't it delicious to watch your politicalopponents devour each other and publicly fling poop at the front runner even after he has decidedly won the contest? No need to get your hands dirty when your opponent is so bent on beating himself to a bloody pulp. Reminds me of the Rethuglican Congress in the months leading up to the last election when both houses changed hands. Democrats generally just kept their mouths shut and smiled while their opponents disintegrated in public.

OF COURSE the Dems like McCain, he's a RINO............

[Orchidflower]

Runningbum: No, the Bataan Death March hero died about 6 years ago. He did go to conferences/conventions of fellow prisoners and WWII vets I know every year.
I used to call him "my hero" all the time, and he seemed to really like that. He WAS a hero, too: this big 6'4" guy had to wear braces on his legs for the rest of his life after the POW camp. I think they burned his toes off one by one.
I do know that not only was he starved with one bowl of rice a day to live on and some water daily, but he was so shell shocked he couldn't SIT anywhere for any length of time (no restaurants, movies, no attending his kid's school events or recitals, etc.). He had nightmares every night until he died and would scream in his sleep.
But the worst was the Japanese gave 10 soldiers appendix operations (nothing wrong with their appendix as this was just for experimentation purposes). 7 died. He lived. NO anesthesia or pain killers at all. He just remembered passing out and waking up sewn up and screaming.
These are all things that most Americans probably aren't aware of happening. Truly horrific war stories that really shouldn't be forgotten about.
Lucky for my son, he passed on some of his war stories for him to remember.

Gumby: Thanks for the book suggestion. It's on my reading list now.

[Nords]

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Originally Posted by MooreBonds Hmmmm.....let's see: your wife is extremely beautiful, extremely rich, and you have no need to do ANYTHING the rest of your life -except spend a lot of time 'enjoying her company'. And you end up spending all of your time arguing politics with other politicians who couldn't tell the truth if their life depended on it? Anyone else left scratching their head over this one?

It's not about the sex, the money, or the people... it's all about the ego power.

Exhibit A: Donald Trump.
B: Gene Simmons.
C: [I'm sure we could add at least 20 names in as many minutes...]