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Old 06-19-2013, 09:37 AM   #81
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Originally Posted by samclem View Post
Why is it preferable to put the math problem on the customer?
And wouldn't you check the math anyway, or would the server just assume the total was right, take the tip amount, and let the "house" suffer the consequences of bad math?
.
Doesn't work like that on a CC transaction. The computer spits out the bill; the server enters the tip amount into the computer afterwards. No math required; you get tipped what you enter into the computer unless the customer comes back when he gets his statement saying he didn't enter that amount (and has the slip to prove it...the restaurant saves all the slips).

My point was that some people just total up the bill not stating a tip amount on the CC slip making the waitperson do the math (more opportunity for error). It's not a big deal, but waiting tables is pretty demanding work and this just adds one more step to the process, usually at a time when you have 15 other things that need doing.

People don't often realize when they're adding work to someone's very busy day.

DW is a silent partner in a busy local restaurant. We've become friendly with a lot of the staff and get all the stories.

I used "J^ck$$" because I had no way to print the words that the waitstaff actually use.
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Old 06-19-2013, 10:32 AM   #82
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People don't often realize when they're adding work to someone's very busy day.

And how can you expect them to know, if they are not told this? Yet, they are called jackasses for doing something that they have no idea is causing an issue?

Yet, if I was that intolerant of a server (hey, I hate ice in my water! The server should just know this! 10% tip for them!), I'd get my food spat upon?

You aren't making very good arguments for the tipping paradigm.

In a similar vein, when I've been at the bar before a meal, I've sometimes asked to keep that bill open and transfer it to our table. Someone told me later, that that is a real PITA for the staff. I thought I was doing them a favor (one bill instead of two, no need to run the card again, etc). We can't read minds, politely inform us of what works best and most people would be happy to comply. The odds of them spitting on you are low.

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Old 06-19-2013, 10:47 AM   #83
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And how can you expect them to know, if they are not told this? Yet, they are called jackasses for doing something that they have no idea is causing an issue?

Yet, if I was that intolerant of a server (hey, I hate ice in my water! The server should just know this! 10% tip for them!), I'd get my food spat upon?

You aren't making very good arguments for the tipping paradigm.

In a similar vein, when I've been at the bar before a meal, I've sometimes asked to keep that bill open and transfer it to our table. Someone told me later, that that is a real PITA for the staff. I thought I was doing them a favor (one bill instead of two, no need to run the card again, etc). We can't read minds, politely inform us of what works best and most people would be happy to comply. The odds of them spitting on you are low.

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Yikes!
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Old 06-19-2013, 10:52 AM   #84
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Doesn't work like that on a CC transaction. The computer spits out the bill; the server enters the tip amount into the computer afterwards. No math required; you get tipped what you enter into the computer unless the customer comes back when he gets his statement saying he didn't enter that amount (and has the slip to prove it...the restaurant saves all the slips).

My point was that some people just total up the bill not stating a tip amount on the CC slip making the waitperson do the math (more opportunity for error). It's not a big deal, but waiting tables is pretty demanding work and this just adds one more step to the process, usually at a time when you have 15 other things that need doing.

People don't often realize when they're adding work to someone's very busy day.

DW is a silent partner in a busy local restaurant. We've become friendly with a lot of the staff and get all the stories.

I used "J^ck$$" because I had no way to print the words that the waitstaff actually use.
It's funny how most of us don't know how little things we do can add aggravation and stress to those serving us. I'm slowly forgetting all my pet peeves from work, thankfully.
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Old 06-19-2013, 11:04 AM   #85
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Doesn't work like that on a CC transaction. The computer spits out the bill; the server enters the tip amount into the computer afterwards. No math required; you get tipped what you enter into the computer unless the customer comes back when he gets his statement saying he didn't enter that amount (and has the slip to prove it...the restaurant saves all the slips).

I'm glad you mentioned this. My DH does this sometimes. I don't think he knew it was a pain (and neither did I). Fortunately, I usually handle the bill. I like round numbers. It makes the math easier, especially if I've had a couple.
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Old 06-19-2013, 11:11 AM   #86
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Yikes!
Care to expand on that?

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Old 06-19-2013, 11:27 AM   #87
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And how can you expect them to know, if they are not told this? Yet, they are called jackasses for doing something that they have no idea is causing an issue?
It goes deeper, because it is explicitly inhospitable to instruct a patron about something that is, in the end, only a matter of the server's convenience. Let's be clear about this: A job providing excellent wait service to patrons is a hard and difficult job. There is nothing wrong with wishing it wasn't so onerous, but that doesn't mean servers are justified in taking any actions to help make their wish comes true or to punish those who don't cater to the server's wishes.

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You aren't making very good arguments for the tipping paradigm.
Some of the nicest people I ever have known are servers in restaurants, and yet I've encountered some rather terrible people in that role. There's a website dedicated to tipping. It has a .org domain so it ostensibly presents itself alongside the Red Cross, public radio, hospitals, churches, etc. When it started in 1996, its purveyor promoted it in a USENET travel newsgroup which I was a member of. Being a frequent business traveler at the time, I checked into it. It was horribly biased and presented a distorted view of tipping at the time. The purveyor was called out on it, and presented scathing rebuttal rationalizing the offensively opportunistic "service". I remember one thing he wrote condemned luggage with luggage wheels, calling people who used them losers (because they were using the luggage wheels instead of calling a bellman for luggage $ervice). Back then, such language online was more inflammatory than it is perceived as today.

There are people who feel that the tipping paradigm (as you put it) should change (or change back) to bolster the benefits from it to those who live on tips. There are people who feel the opposite way. I don't care which way it goes - I just want everyone to fairly and honorably abide by the system as it is that specific day. Don't seek to exploit the lax enforcement of the system to personal gain.
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Old 06-19-2013, 12:44 PM   #88
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Care to expand on that?

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Well, having lived in Europe and Asia over the decades, I'm not really trying to 'make an argument for the tipping paradigm'. I like the Euro/Asia model where tips are not expected and servers are paid a decent wage, reflected in the price of the meal.

I was trying to make the case for the servers who are overworked and generally under appreciated. It's impossibly hard, physical work coupled to serving people often with unrealistically high expectations who think you're their servant. (Nothing is more infuriating than being asked to run back to the kitchen get 'an extra slice of lemon' and then see it unused when the table is cleared).

Serving in a busy, high volume establishment requires all sort of skills and coordination that are unseen to the public.

When you have a lot of balls in the air and someone adds to that load (intentionally or otherwise), I think a server can be forgiven for blowing off steam and calling someone a jackass (in the kitchen of course, not in the public area). Actually, harsher words are usually used.

This is the 'hospitality industry'. In general, the server is not in a position to advise on how to configure the tip. The customer calls the shots. If you want to round it up to even numbers, just provide a total, leave an odd amount ($12.04), it's up to you and the server must deal with it.

It's just that when you've been on your feet for 9 or 11 hours, have four people waiting for drinks, another table not happy with their desert, another table asking for water and the kitchen calling you to pick up food, the last thing you want to do is figure out how much a $31.09 CC total is from the $27.45 bill. (Yeah, $3.64...thanks)

"Why yes, I'll be happy to transfer your bar bill to the dining room". First let me (amid all the above stuff going on) find the manager who can do the transfer knowing that I won't get your drink tip and the server in the dining room will.

So, I've had my rant and I feel better. Hope this helps.
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Old 06-19-2013, 01:41 PM   #89
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And a restaurant in San Diego which banned tipping mentioned in the podcast:

About Our “No Tipping” Policy
It also has awesome food! I've been there several times. Despite being named after/themed after hand-crafted sausage - it has very good vegetarian options, and is huge on farm-to-table.
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Old 06-19-2013, 01:50 PM   #90
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Doesn't work like that on a CC transaction. The computer spits out the bill; the server enters the tip amount into the computer afterwards. No math required; you get tipped what you enter into the computer unless the customer comes back when he gets his statement saying he didn't enter that amount (and has the slip to prove it...the restaurant saves all the slips).

My point was that some people just total up the bill not stating a tip amount on the CC slip making the waitperson do the math (more opportunity for error). It's not a big deal, but waiting tables is pretty demanding work and this just adds one more step to the process, usually at a time when you have 15 other things that need doing.

People don't often realize when they're adding work to someone's very busy day.

DW is a silent partner in a busy local restaurant. We've become friendly with a lot of the staff and get all the stories.

I used "J^ck$$" because I had no way to print the words that the waitstaff actually use.

If that is the case, then who cares if the tip has some kind of cents to it Just enter the number and let the computer take care of the total amount of tips you get for the day... no muss, no fuss...


PS... Please tell me where these wait staff are located.... I will be sure to not go there and piss them off...
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Old 06-19-2013, 02:08 PM   #91
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Ok - finally made it through the entire thread. I'm really surprised no one posted this. (Warning foul language because it's a tarantino film)

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Old 06-19-2013, 03:30 PM   #92
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...
So, I've had my rant and I feel better. Hope this helps.
Yes, it further convinces me that the whole tipping things is crazy, and compensation should be left to the manager.

As a customer, I don't have the 'inside scoop' on any of this. I'm just here for some food. I don't want to be expected to know how the transfer of a tab from bar to table works (and I honestly thought I was doing them a favor, see how screwed up this is?), if it is a pain for them, just say "Sorry sir, we really need to close this and start a new one, OK?". Guess what, I'd say, "Oh, OK, got a pen?". It's really no big deal to me, so just tell me. And I don't know if a server is over or under worked, over or under paid. It's not my job - I'm the customer. That is the managers job. And he/she is the best one to do it, because he/she has the whole picture.

Imagine if you went to buy a new laptop, you pay the stated price and then the counter guy won't let you take it out of his hands. He looks at you and says ' you know, the engineers were against a real hard deadline to get this out, they worked nights and weekends for months on end, and then the production team had to pull extra shifts, lots of people didn't get to see their kids before they were off to bed many nights, and we had to ship some by air to get them to you - how about a little appreciation for all that hard work? And if I decide that the amount you choose to give is not enough, don't be surprised if your hard drive is wiped the next time you bring it in for service, sir'.

Ludicrous, isn't it? It's up to the company to figure what they need to do to compensate their employees, and what they need to charge me in order to do that and stay competitive and stay in business. But I'm supposed to make those decisions when I'm hungry? If I wanted to spend my time balancing a budget for a production facility, I'd go back to work!

BTW, we went out to dinner with another couple last w/e, a fairly nice, but informal kinda place. The server was really bad (kinda comically bad), and I never had any problems there before. I even heard the nearby table having problems with their order with her, so it wasn't just us. The other couple with us got the brunt of the problems, and I could tell the other guy was getting pretty worked up over it. But he is stressed out over work, and I'm pretty mellow being retired. I let it slide, and gave a 15% tip regardless. He kinda freaked out about that, but he can do what he wants (I don't know what he decided, zero would have been OK with me - it should have been clear to the server that they were not happy with the 'service'). If it was just me and DW, I think I would have spoke to the manager, but I didn't want to tie the other couple up with that.

edit/add: hey rodi, I like that "He convinced me, I want my dollar back!"

But before marko gets upset, yes (as I stated above), I tip because it's expected. I just would prefer it be eliminated.

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Old 06-19-2013, 04:32 PM   #93
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Doesn't work like that on a CC transaction. The computer spits out the bill; the server enters the tip amount into the computer afterwards. No math required; you get tipped what you enter into the computer unless the customer comes back when he gets his statement saying he didn't enter that amount (and has the slip to prove it...the restaurant saves all the slips).

My point was that some people just total up the bill not stating a tip amount on the CC slip making the waitperson do the math (more opportunity for error). It's not a big deal, but waiting tables is pretty demanding work and this just adds one more step to the process, usually at a time when you have 15 other things that need doing.

People don't often realize when they're adding work to someone's very busy day.

DW is a silent partner in a busy local restaurant. We've become friendly with a lot of the staff and get all the stories.

I used "J^ck$$" because I had no way to print the words that the waitstaff actually use.
This is maybe the dumbest thing I've run across in a while. You expect the diner, who has had some drinks, you hope, and maybe has forgotten his glasses, in your semi-dark restaurant to do the calculating that any cash register should be able to do. Hello! If the gross check is $16.29, and I write down $20 in the I will pay line, if you sober and equipped people can't figure out that the tip is $20-$16.29 and allocate it, then I don't need to eat at you restaurant. There are others, and I have never encountered one that seemed bothered by this method of tipping.

I live close by, and I cook as well as most restaurants so I can go home, eat well, save money, and not have some half-wit think of me as a jackass.

You need me, (in the aggregate), I don't need you.

Ha
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Old 06-19-2013, 04:35 PM   #94
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This is maybe the dumbest thing I've run across in a while. You expect the diner, who has had some drinks, you hope, and maybe has forgotten his glasses, in your semi-dark restaurant to do the calculating that any cash register should be able to do. Hello! If the gross check is $16.29, and I write down $20 in the I will pay line, if you sober and equipped people can't figure out that the tip is $20-$16.29 and allocate it, then I don't need to eat at you restaurant. There are others, and I have never encountered one that seemed bothered by this method of tipping.

I live close by, and I cook as well as most restaurants so I can go home, eat well, save money, and not have some half-wit think of me as a jackass.

You need me, (in the aggregate), I don't need you.

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Old 06-19-2013, 07:45 PM   #95
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Ok, ok!!! UNCLE!!!

When HA tells me that I'm out in the weeds, I'm out in the weeds!

No more commenting when I"ve had 2 Manhattans! UNCLE!
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Old 06-19-2013, 09:22 PM   #96
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Ok, ok!!! UNCLE!!!

When HA tells me that I'm out in the weeds, I'm out in the weeds!

No more commenting when I"ve had 2 Manhattans! UNCLE!
Super response. I was over-the-top.

Thanks for being a gent.

Ha
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Old 06-19-2013, 09:29 PM   #97
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If that is the case, then who cares if the tip has some kind of cents to it Just enter the number and let the computer take care of the total amount of tips you get for the day... no muss, no fuss......
I was thinking the same thing. If the server needs to enter the tip, what does it matter if I write $9.06 or $9.00 and they enter it? Same number of keystrokes.

I concede that serving is difficult and demanding work, which is why I usually tip 20% (rounded down).

And from what marko wrote it sounds like the server makes out just as well if I leave the tip on the CC vs leaving cash and there is less room for the server to cheat the taxman (so I'm doing them a favor).

While I don't see it as my mission in life to make things more convenient for the server, I think I am convinced that I should settle the bar tab rather than have it brought forward to my dining room bill so the server doesn't inadvertently end up with the tip i intend for the bartender who served us.
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Old 06-21-2013, 08:29 PM   #98
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I usually take 20% of the before tax total and round it down to the nearest dollar to get the tip and then further round the total (up or down if slight) so the total that goes on my credit card doesn't have cents. So if the pre-tax bill was $45.82 and the total was $49.94, I would generally tip $9.06 and my total would be $59.00. If service is particularly poor, I'll dial down to 15%. I usually only increase if service has been above and beyond or if the bill is small (for example breakfasts) and if I have a discount coupon I calculate the tip based on the bill before the discount.
Too complicated for me.

If I enjoyed the meal and the service was good, I tip 10%. If I didn't (which is very rare), there is no tip. Simple.
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Old 06-21-2013, 10:29 PM   #99
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Too complicated for me.

If I enjoyed the meal and the service was good, I tip 10%. If I didn't (which is very rare), there is no tip. Simple.
Yes, math is hard. Simple, yes, and cheap too.
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Old 06-21-2013, 10:45 PM   #100
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Actually I don't think maths are hard, I just can't be bothered playing games.

10% is a good rule of thumb. But if someone wishes to tip 23%, or 37.2%, or whatever, that is their choice.
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