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Old 01-29-2015, 06:11 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by sengsational View Post
Rather than pick a random DNS server, you can see how many of them perform, then use a good one. Freeware from one of my heros:

https://www.grc.com/dns/benchmark.htm
That sounds like a great free product. Now I'm reminded how common messed up DNS severs were. When customers called in, level 1 folks were trained with trcroute and a couple simple home grow tools to diagnose the issue.

Very possible non optimal DNS configuration is the source of your issue.

Don't go looking too hard for "dropped packets" with ping output. Request time out is not always caused by lost packets. For lost packets it's a different discussion and tool. You don't need to go there unless you desire to learn a lot more.

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Old 01-29-2015, 06:14 PM   #42
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So, I could set two simultaneous pings one external to my router (to the IP for Google you provided) and one to router.

If I see dropped packets only on the external ping - then I've got those rats at "C"WC.

If I see dropped packets on both - then the issue is internal and needs further isolation.
...
Maybe I will learn something here too. Did you mean to say ping to (1) the external world, and (2) your router?

How do you get your router's address?
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Old 01-29-2015, 06:16 PM   #43
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Maybe I will learn something here too. Did you mean to say ping to (1) the external world, and (2) your router.

How do you get your router's address?
run - cmd - > open the DOS shell and type "ipconfig"

The first couple of lines will report the IP of your computer and the "Default Gateway" will be the internal IP address of your router.
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Old 01-29-2015, 06:20 PM   #44
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...
Don't go looking too hard for "dropped packets" with ping output. Request time out is not always caused by lost packets. For lost packets it's a different discussion and tool. You don't need to go there unless you desire to learn a lot more.
...
In my case after the remote service person at Comcast "sent a signal to the cable modem" (her full explanation unfortunately), I still experience very occasional 1 minute internet disconnects.

Are you saying that the ping test I mentioned will not show the disconnects I very occasionally see now? Or are you saying that it will show the disconnects, but there are also other reasons for the lost packets?
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Old 01-29-2015, 06:28 PM   #45
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In my case after the remote service person at Comcast "sent a signal to the cable modem" (her full explanation unfortunately), I still experience very occasional 1 minute internet disconnects.

Are you saying that the ping test I mentioned will not show the disconnects I very occasionally see now? Or are you saying that it will show the disconnects, but there are also other reasons for the lost packets?
Ping shows response time from an ip address. It also shows requests that time out after a certain time.

Dropped packets occur all the time for various reasons. While not optimal they are generally not a big deal. I've seen cases where there is such bad connectivity where many many consecutive dropped packets will cause a request to time out, but that's rare.

Edit to add: Here's a Microsoft tech writeup of ping. The default for request timed out is 4 seconds.

https://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/...=ws.10%29.aspx

Here's a nice description of lost packets from Wikipedia:
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Packet_loss


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Old 01-29-2015, 07:40 PM   #46
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This page shows a graphic that explains the four layers in the model. If a ping works, it is not telling you anything about the application layer above.

https://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/...=ws.10%29.aspx
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Old 01-29-2015, 07:46 PM   #47
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But if the ping doesn't work and the command reports 'request timed out' then that, to me, indicates a connectivity issue.
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Old 01-29-2015, 08:04 PM   #48
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Changing out the router can be a miraculous event.
Updating the firmware is also a nice fix.
I also find that people may switch the connecting cable to the wrong router port.
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Old 01-29-2015, 08:28 PM   #49
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This page shows a graphic that explains the four layers in the model. If a ping works, it is not telling you anything about the application layer above.

https://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/...=ws.10%29.aspx

Maybe were saying the same thing.

Ping(or web app) is in the application domain, that's the highest layer in Microsofts's 4 layer tier(subset of OSI 7 layer, but it's more true to their implementation). So a successful ping shows you connected to and passed data between your client and it's server. More or less proving the lower levels on the chart function.

Both ping and a web application ultimately connect to a(n) server(s) and send and receive data through the lower 3 layers to remote systems. They also disconnect at the proper time.

What ping rules out is all the client side of running a browser it's code, Simple html or an entire java app. All the bloat that causes paging, cpu,memory to come into play.

Here's a neutral sample application that gives an example of what ping and a web app do. In a web app these lower level funtions are abstracted from the developer by higher level functions:

http://www.thegeekstuff.com/2011/12/...t-programming/





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Old 01-29-2015, 09:25 PM   #50
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Ping is definitely not in the application layer. And I'm referring to the 4 layers of TCP/IP. That is not a MS model either.

In the link I posted, the graphic shows ICMP in layer 3, but the table includes ICMP in layer 2. Obviously something to resolve there. This link has simple description of ping.

ExtremeTech Discussions - Ping is ICMP layer 3 working at layer 2

I'm not sure what your code example does-- I didn't find ping in there, but I'll keep deciphering.
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Old 01-29-2015, 10:02 PM   #51
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Yes, you are correct ping talks to the ICMP layer, don't bother to decipher the code. It's a sample tcp/ip application that talks to the next layer. There's no ping, just calls an implementation of sockets apis.

But I still think were on the same path, don't think various different apps having connection errors is in the application layer, IMHO it must be lower.

Could be many things but if I were diagnosing my own machine I'd start with pings to the different dns servers as suggested. You obviously know the toolsets to go down to the next lower levels, they're not for most people to interpret. Sorry for any miscommunication.

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Old 01-29-2015, 10:04 PM   #52
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Well you guys lost me. Probably my fault for not sustaining attention.

If I see say, 40 successive pings that return "Request timed out", is that not likely evidence of an intermittent with my data coming into the cable modem? I would think that the occasional singular instance would be questionable but many successive ones?

When I divide the wall time of several hours by the packets sent, that comes to about 1 reply per second. Hence my conclusion that the pings were 1 second each.

Caveat: I am not and have never been a network savy guy. Just a frustrated web user trying to get a simple picture of the problem.
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Old 01-30-2015, 07:57 AM   #53
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Well you guys lost me. Probably my fault for not sustaining attention.

If I see say, 40 successive pings that return "Request timed out", is that not likely evidence of an intermittent with my data coming into the cable modem? I would think that the occasional singular instance would be questionable but many successive ones?

When I divide the wall time of several hours by the packets sent, that comes to about 1 reply per second. Hence my conclusion that the pings were 1 second each.

Caveat: I am not and have never been a network savy guy. Just a frustrated web user trying to get a simple picture of the problem.
Probably rates its own thread, as the situation is different than Al's (I think).

It's very difficult to understand the complete picture for many of these kinds of posts. To understand more, and not ask a dozen questions, it helps to know the network a little bit. For instance, I remember having router(s) that had problems with DNS, dropped the connection periodically, etc. If I asked "what is causing my problem?" and let others know it was a particular router and firmware, some would rightfully point out that the problem can be fixed with firmware update.

The simple picture you need is a combination of the TCP/IP graphic, a depiction of your network, and how it connects to the Internet. As an example, here is a simplified text outline of my LAN:

Service Provider: Comcrap
- Type (Speed) of Service: Xfinity Performance Internet
- Cable Modem: Arris Interactive, L.L.C. wbm760a

Routers & Switches
Netgear N600 Wireless Dual Band Gigabit Router WNDR3700
- Firmware version: V1.0.1.14
- 192.168.1.1
- Basement
- Ethernet CAT5 to CM
2G Channel 11 / 5G Channel 48

Netgear 54 Mbps Wireless Router model WGR614v7
- Firmware v: V2.0.20_1.0.20NA
- 192.168.1.10
- 2nd Floor
- Ethernet CAT5 to 192.168.1.1
- 2G Channel 1

Dell PowerConnect 2214 Switch
- 1st Floor Office
- Ethernet CAT5 to 192.168.1.1

Dell XPS 8700
- 1st Floor Office
- 192.168.1.115
- Ethernet CAT5 to 2214
- Windows 7 Pro

Dell Dimension 3100
- 1st Floor Office
- 192.168.1.108
- Ethernet CAT5 to 2214
- Windows XP Pro

Dell Dimension 4600
- 1st Floor Office
- 192.168.1.118
- Ethernet CAT5 to 2214
- Ubuntu 14.04 LTS LXDE Lubuntu

HP Pavilion Notebook DV7
- 1st Floor Living Room
- 192.168.1.111
- Wireless 5G (192.168.1.1)
- Windows 7 Pro

Apple Macbook
- 2ndFloor Bedroom
- 192.168.1.111
- Wireless 2G (192.168.1.10)

The devil is in the details. You could mention Windows Vista, and that brings up a different context.

About 40 succesive PINGs failing. Do you mean it was working, then failed 40x, then started working again?
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Old 01-30-2015, 08:34 AM   #54
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Target2019 I agree it's tough to diagnose one issue in a thread let alone several, while guessing as to the implementation details.


Lsbcal ping's output shows how long a successful exchange of data occurred, ping waits a second between attempts so wall clock kind of relates to the number pings not the response time. Is post #34 an example of what your seeing when you say 40 consecutive times?
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Old 01-30-2015, 09:29 AM   #55
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Target2019 I agree it's tough to diagnose one issue in a thread let alone several, while guessing as to the implementation details.


Lsbcal ping's output shows how long a successful exchange of data occurred, ping waits a second between attempts so wall clock kind of relates to the number pings not the response time. Is post #34 an example of what your seeing when you say 40 consecutive times?
Yes, the 40 consecutive "Request timed out" were on 40 consecutive lines in the ping results file I showed above. Sometimes there might be 50 consecutive lines, nothing special about the exact count. There are very occasional single line events also and I've assumed these might be something not to be concerned about.

What I thought I had was a simple way to show how often and how serious the "Internet disconnected" note comes up on one's computer. I'm only guessing that it tells one the cable modem input signal's integrity and not the exact network reason for the problem.

Since my internet connection has been pretty stable recently, I've not been able to see an "Internet disconnected" note come up while I'm sitting at my computer. If this happend then I could look at the ping file results at the same time in order to check they are the manifestation of the problem. Perhaps someone like TromboneAl will be able to see such an event.
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Old 01-30-2015, 05:58 PM   #56
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What router?
This one:

Amazon.com: Netgear WGR614 Wireless-G Router: Electronics

Wow, I've had that since 2005. Time flies.

I read a web page that suggested that if your wifi speed is lower than your direct connect speed, you should upgrade to a newer router.
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Old 01-31-2015, 02:04 AM   #57
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This one:

Amazon.com: Netgear WGR614 Wireless-G Router: Electronics

Wow, I've had that since 2005. Time flies.

I read a web page that suggested that if your wifi speed is lower than your direct connect speed, you should upgrade to a newer router.
There is a v after the model, and the number after that is important. Some versions were pretty bad.
If you look for newer firmware, you could get lucky and find that it fixes some issues.
But it is very old. Just a matter of time before a component fails.
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Old 01-31-2015, 06:23 AM   #58
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Have you swapped out the cable from your computer to the router? Perhaps your NIC (network interface card) in your computer is showing its age. Always start with the physical aspects when troubleshooting connectivity problems. I didn't read all of this thread, so if the physical aspects has been exhausted I apologize.
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Old 02-05-2015, 02:03 PM   #59
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Today I installed this:



http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...?ie=UTF8&psc=1

and my download speed immediately went from 20Mbps to 31.9 Mbps.

The setup process with that thing is indeed as simple as they advertise it to be.

I'll let you know in a few days whether that solves the intermittent problems.
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Old 02-05-2015, 04:45 PM   #60
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...
and my download speed immediately went from 20Mbps to 31.9 Mbps.
....
Just curious if you could notice that kind of change in your browser page loads?
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