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Re: Iran the british navy and what should be done.
Old 03-31-2007, 04:45 PM   #41
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Re: Iran the british navy and what should be done.

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Originally Posted by 2B
We only do stupid things like ferment corn (ask any moonshiner how to make white lightning and corn would be laughed at), dump money into hydrogen power (where do you think the H2 will come from?) and opine endlessly about "green power" without any that make economic sense.
Also on-target. Hydrogen power's "green-ness" is really sleight of hand; the hydrogen has to be produced from something, and most of the sources under investigation consume fossil fuels (hydro-carbons) and artmospheric oxygen to create hydrogen gas and greenhouse-gas carbon dioxide waste. (BP has a nifty "home-based" generator system that sucks in natural gas and uses solar energy to convert it into hydrogen and carbon dioxide). A smarter, carbon-neutral way to make the stuff would be to use nuclear power, which splits water into hydrogen and oxygen gas as a byproduct of electric power generation. Still smarter muight be rooftop hydrogen generators that use solar power to split water into oxygen and hydrogen gas; I just don't think that even the most efficient solar technology could create enough of the stuff to fuel our hunger for energy.

As for using corn to make ethanol, you're probably right. If big corporate corn producers like ADM didn't have the lobbying power they do we'd probably be advocating sugar cane (moonshiners would agree) or sugar sawgrass (alas, an invasive weed, but really easy to grow).

--Peter (Who has a flex-fuel Ford Ranger pickup truck and is looking for E-85 to go on sale somewhere nearby.)
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Re: Iran the british navy and what should be done.
Old 03-31-2007, 05:14 PM   #42
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Re: Iran the british navy and what should be done.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RustyShackleford
It probably makes more sense to figure out how to stop people from becoming religious
extremists. Thomas Friedman has written very insightfully about its causes; the shame
of living in such crappy societies and having it in their faces (thanks to internet etc) how
much better our societies are; the oppressive governments many Muslims live under
(all the 9/11 hijackers came from Egypt and Saudi Arabia, very repressive); and, of
course, the actions of the USA, particularly in the Israeli/Palestinian conflict.

Perhaps the biggest problem is we'd very likely make the planet un-livable for ourselves
as well.
I agree that stemming the formation of radical Islamists is the answer. But, remember that most of the radicals (suicide bombers in Iraq, all the 9/11 terrorists, etc) are not from the poorest level of their society--they are middle class, in general. The society they want is more repressive than the one they came from (think Taliban and Iran. Saudi Arabia is repressive largely due to the religious fundamentalists there). I think Freidman, as right as he is in some cases, is wrong about this. He's recycling the old paradigm of Cold War ("these Cubans and leftists in South America are just responding to the repressive captialist societies they've lived under, they are responding to the oppression of the US). That dog won't hunt IRT the Islamic fundamentalists. These people totally reject rationalism and believe their reward is in the next life.

I think the answer lies with Madison Avenue, Chevrolet, Paramount Pictures, McDonalds, Starbucks, and Toshiba. At least as a start. It sounds crass, but if people in the Middle East come to understand that they can enjoy nicer things, be more comfortable, live to an older age in good health, and build wealth that can be left tot heir children, then maybe the allure of a great reward later will be less attractive, and figuring out how to earn a few bucks/reals/dinars will utilize energies now being spent to blow up people of other religions and other branches of their own religion . Two good indications that this is a productive avenue of approach for the US:
-- This model has successfully replaced many aspects of other cultures.
-- It is what the mad mullahs are most afraid of, and what they constantly preach against..

We spend a lot of time on this board reviling the extremes of American materialism, but it turns out there are far worse things. Maybe it has gone too far in ths country, but it wasn't long ago that it all made a LOT odf sense here, and it still does in maost of the world. I have no doubt that the first washing machine my great grandmother bought was about the closest thing to a life-changing miracle that ever happened to her. I don't think we should sell this mindset short--it's what we do best!
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Re: Iran the british navy and what should be done.
Old 03-31-2007, 06:01 PM   #43
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Re: Iran the british navy and what should be done.

lets-retire ... if you're reading my comment correctly, you're saying you expect it will take decades before we reach that major conflict? I doubt it ... if you mean we'll be in conflict for decades, that I can believe.
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Re: Iran the british navy and what should be done.
Old 03-31-2007, 06:09 PM   #44
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Re: Iran the british navy and what should be done.

Quote:
Originally Posted by samclem
I agree that stemming the formation of radical Islamists is the answer. But, remember that most of the radicals (suicide bombers in Iraq, all the 9/11 terrorists, etc) are not from the poorest level of their society--they are middle class, in general. The society they want is more repressive than the one they came from (think Taliban and Iran. Saudi Arabia is repressive largely due to the religious fundamentalists there). I think Freidman, as right as he is in some cases, is wrong about this. He's recycling the old paradigm of Cold War ("these Cubans and leftists in South America are just responding to the repressive captialist societies they've lived under, they are responding to the oppression of the US). That dog won't hunt IRT the Islamic fundamentalists. These people totally reject rationalism and believe their reward is in the next life.

I think the answer lies with Madison Avenue, Chevrolet, Paramount Pictures, McDonalds, Starbucks, and Toshiba. At least as a start. It sounds crass, but if people in the Middle East come to understand that they can enjoy nicer things, be more comfortable, live to an older age in good health, and build wealth that can be left tot heir children, then maybe the allure of a great reward later will be less attractive, and figuring out how to earn a few bucks/reals/dinars will utilize energies now being spent to blow up people of other religions and other branches of their own religion . Two good indications that this is a productive avenue of approach for the US:
-- This model has successfully replaced many aspects of other cultures.
-- It is what the mad mullahs are most afraid of, and what they constantly preach against..

We spend a lot of time on this board reviling the extremes of American materialism, but it turns out there are far worse things. Maybe it has gone too far in ths country, but it wasn't long ago that it all made a LOT odf sense here, and it still does in maost of the world. I have no doubt that the first washing machine my great grandmother bought was about the closest thing to a life-changing miracle that ever happened to her. I don't think we should sell this mindset short--it's what we do best!
The people in the muslim societies see our filth, our decadence our 24/7 sex on the internet our crime and say whoa we want nothing of it!

Yes the 9/11 bombers want a taliban style society in the Middle east and want western influences OUT!

We have big problems that really have no answers. Man we need a real world leader.

Time to look for the leader from another Planet!
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Re: Iran the british navy and what should be done.
Old 03-31-2007, 06:10 PM   #45
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Re: Iran the british navy and what should be done.

An interesting speach given in Boulder, CO by Chris Hedges is: American Fascists: The Radical Christian Right.

He actually touches on fascists of several stripes, not just American, or the radical Christian right.

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Re: Iran the british navy and what should be done.
Old 03-31-2007, 06:51 PM   #46
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Re: Iran the british navy and what should be done.

Quote:
Originally Posted by samclem
I think the answer lies with Madison Avenue, Chevrolet, Paramount Pictures, McDonalds, Starbucks, and Toshiba. At least as a start. It sounds crass, but if people in the Middle East come to understand that they can enjoy nicer things, be more comfortable, live to an older age in good health, and build wealth that can be left tot heir children, then maybe the allure of a great reward later will be less attractive, and figuring out how to earn a few bucks/reals/dinars will utilize energies now being spent to blow up people of other religions and other branches of their own religion . Two good indications that this is a productive avenue of approach for the US:
-- This model has successfully replaced many aspects of other cultures.
-- It is what the mad mullahs are most afraid of, and what they constantly preach against..
I agree with this since it worked with the Soviet Union. I watched the movies 2001/2010 again and realized that the Soviet Union has gone the same way as Pan Am.

I would also argue that this model would indicate that going in an blowing up all of Iran's infrastructure would only reinforce the mullahs' control and power. Maybe they could become another Dubai.
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Re: Iran the british navy and what should be done.
Old 04-01-2007, 02:34 AM   #47
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Re: Iran the british navy and what should be done.

It's beginning to look like Hitler’s army "the west wants to rule the world" We do have the man power to do it, but at what cost will invade them at? Have no doubt that the west is strong enough to invade Iran and that this has been the plan all along! Other wise! Why would we be in afghan on the one side and Iraq on the other side? The draft is coming back soon, I say most likely with-in 2 years. Have no doubt that Brittan’s like Israel does not need help from the U.S. They have an army as good if not better then our own! The U.S. has never forgotten the 1980 incident and very much wants to even the score. Iran is playing a dangerous game. And I would not bank on that backing from Russia some people are thinking will take place, remember Our president has made pretty good friends out or with Russia and they depend on a lot of our tax dollars to support there economy. As well Russia is like America and has a large oil reserve and wants to burn all the oil in the world first and then we will open our wells and sell oil. This is the slow take over of the world. The other take over is “war“! America should set back and respect that every country does not share our life style and values and does not want them pushed on them. Remember as we where kids, only believe 20% of what you see on TV and 80% of what you read. That 80% of what you read has dropped to about 20% what you read. In 1992 there was a reason for stopping before we got to Bag dad! Now it is “2007” and we know why we stopped short of bag dad. However do not under estimate the military power of America or Brit’s, we have nukes designed to take out small camps, with a weapon that can shoot from the U.S. and only miss the target by a ¼ of an inch. The U.S. can see the kind of drink you are drinking on your pouch! Have no doubt they know exactly where Mr. Bin is. Watching or keeping Ben -Lauden alive is far better as we know whom is involved in the Taliban and where they are operating! He is our best followed spy we have.
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Re: Iran the british navy and what should be done.
Old 04-01-2007, 09:39 AM   #48
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Re: Iran the british navy and what should be done.

"Your enemy is never a villain in his own eye. Keep this in mind, it may offer a way to make him your friend. If not, you can kill him without hate--and quickly."

R. Heinlein
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Re: Iran the british navy and what should be done.
Old 04-01-2007, 03:00 PM   #49
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Re: Iran the british navy and what should be done.

Here is the latest UK plan:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main...01/wiran01.xml
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Re: Iran the british navy and what should be done.
Old 04-01-2007, 04:26 PM   #50
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Re: Iran the british navy and what should be done.

Quote:
Originally Posted by samclem
Developing energy alternatives is not an engineering problem, and it is not (primarily) a politcal problem. It is an economic problem.
Good point.

Quote:
As long as oil is cheaper, it wil be our source of energy.
But, of course, oil is NOT really cheaper, if you look at the enormous collateral costs.

The biggest is probably the Middle East situation: our unholy alliances with repressive
regimes like Saudi Arabia, our attitude of "Israel right-or-wrong" because we need all the
friends we can get in that part of the world, and our need to go to war there to maintain
some semblence of stability. All of these are reasons "they hate us". I don't think it's
unreasonable to say that the 9/11 attacks and the Iraq war are all part of the cost of oil.

Then of course there are the environmental costs - pollution of all kinds, and CO2 and
global warming particular (unless you're part of the lunatic fringe that ignores the
overwhelming weight of scientific evidence and believes that global warming is a
figment of Al Gore's imagination).

Quote:
Also, remember that if we put up tarrifs or other things to make oil artificially expensive so that other energy sources are developed, we'll be puting our industries (and workers) at a significant disadvantage worldwide.
Except most of the rest of the civilized world is interested in doing similar things (e.g. Kyoto
Protocols), the US being a holdout. And maybe a little sacrifice is worthwhile to save
ourselves from global climate change and perpetual involvement with the nightmare
of the Middle East. We are the greatest country in the world, surely we're good enough
to compete internationally while doing the right thing.





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Re: Iran the british navy and what should be done.
Old 04-01-2007, 06:07 PM   #51
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Re: Iran the british navy and what should be done.

I find it interesting that the west doesn't seem willing to pour a bunch of money into developing a commercial fusion reactor. A trillion or so might do it. Then the middle-east madmen could go back to their sand and goats, the CO2 climate change police could find another cause and the rest of us could get on with FIRE.

Then I look at the world as it is and see that if the technology existed it would be forever in limbo due to:
NIMBY
big oil
big uranium
big ethanol
our own apathy
lawyers looking for the big score

I guess we're screwed
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Re: Iran the british navy and what should be done.
Old 04-01-2007, 08:01 PM   #52
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Re: Iran the british navy and what should be done.

At least for use as vehicle fuel, I think our previous discussion of the issue here indicated there's a lot of promise in methanol. You it can be made from waste, we can use the present liquid fuel infrastructure, and we don't have to grow special crops to make it. Yes, I'd be okay with limited government involvement in this case--mandate that all imported vehicles be flex fuel (gasoline, E-85, M-85, etc). That's a small price to pay to build in some competition and to help build some downward pressure on oil prices.

Hydrogen=not smart
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Re: Iran the british navy and what should be done.
Old 04-01-2007, 08:09 PM   #53
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Re: Iran the british navy and what should be done.

Quote:
Originally Posted by janeeyre
Here we go again. Iran coerces the British marines into making statements under duress and all the UK wants is to solve the crisis diplomatically by promising to not knowingly enter Iranian waters......

Why is the West again succumbing to the bullies? If the UK can prove the sailors were in Iraqi waters as it claims they were why not declare this an act of war and give them a deadline to release them or else. Enough is enough. It's time to put this fanatic president in his place. He is challenging the world community with his nuclear program, destabilizing other countries such as Lebanon by supporting and arming Hezbollah, threatening to destroy Israel and all the UK and the West doing is backpedaling.
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Re: Iran the british navy and what should be done.
Old 04-01-2007, 08:21 PM   #54
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Re: Iran the british navy and what should be done.

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I find it interesting that the west doesn't seem willing to pour a bunch of money into developing a commercial fusion reactor.
http://www.iter.org/
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Re: Iran the british navy and what should be done.
Old 04-01-2007, 08:26 PM   #55
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Re: Iran the british navy and what should be done.

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Originally Posted by Corporateburnout
Here we go again. Iran coerces the British marines into making statements under duress and all the UK wants is to solve the crisis diplomatically by promising to not knowingly enter Iranian waters......

Why is the West again succumbing to the bullies? If the UK can prove the sailors were in Iraqi waters as it claims they were why not declare this an act of war and give them a deadline to release them or else. Enough is enough. It's time to put this fanatic president in his place. He is challenging the world community with his nuclear program, destabilizing other countries such as Lebanon by supporting and arming Hezbollah, threatening to destroy Israel and all the UK and the West doing is backpedaling.
It is still all about OIL!

Bottom line the world economy cannot sustain any period of Iranian oil or Saudi oil off the market. You would see 200+ a dollar a barrel oil.

Iran = a large suicide bomber.

These people have lost their minds. Now the west has sold out to the oil companies.

Bottom line is what you said if the British were in Iraqi waters then yes indeed it is an act of war by Iran and they should be told give up the seaman in 72 hours or else. Sorry to say I beleive that we really do need to have the Russians and Chinese get involved here, but I believe they just love to see the mess that we are in and they just smile as they think ef the usa.
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Re: Iran the british navy and what should be done.
Old 04-02-2007, 12:50 AM   #56
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Re: Iran the british navy and what should be done.

Charles--I read it incorrectly. OOPPS.
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Re: Iran the british navy and what should be done.
Old 04-02-2007, 01:27 AM   #57
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Re: Iran the british navy and what should be done.

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Originally Posted by newguy888
Bottom line is what you said if the British were in Iraqi waters then yes indeed it is an act of war by Iran and they should be told give up the seaman in 72 hours or else. Sorry to say I beleive that we really do need to have the Russians and Chinese get involved here, but I believe they just love to see the mess that we are in and they just smile as they think ef the usa.
Given that the local Iranian commander is probably some religious fanatic who probably can't read a map, I doubt that the Iranians have any idea whether the British really were in Iraqi waters or not. The Iraqi commander indicated that they were not. But the central government is going to support him right or wrong.
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Re: Iran the british navy and what should be done.
Old 04-02-2007, 04:55 AM   #58
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Re: Iran the british navy and what should be done.

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Given that the local Iranian commander is probably some religious fanatic who probably can't read a map, I doubt that the Iranians have any idea whether the British really were in Iraqi waters or not. The Iraqi commander indicated that they were not. But the central government is going to support him right or wrong.
They are already too deep into it. They cannot admit they made a mistake (if they did). I doubt we would admit it either. But one thing is for sure somebody messed up it could have been deliberate. Plus, Iran is getting the publicity of being tough on the US an UK. YOu know... keeping the faithful riled up!

This is probably a job for diplomacy... After things settle down... takeout those nuclear plants. I wander if some Iraqi Insurgents (in Iran) might do the same favor the Iranian Insurgents are doing in Iraq... Good old fashion Guerilla Warfare.
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Re: Iran the british navy and what should be done.
Old 04-02-2007, 12:48 PM   #59
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Re: Iran the british navy and what should be done.

Then again it could be all about oil. Oil Price was after the last Isrel Lebeon dust up then it went down. Most of Iran's income comes from sale of oil. Cause tension in middle east, oil price up. Inflation in Iran goes down, citizens of the country less inclined to regime change.

A quick way to end this is destroy Iran's gasoline refinery and blockade all gasoline coming into the country by seizing/blowing the pipelines. Irans ecomomy grinds to a halt chop,chop. Of course they go balistic seize the Streight of Hormuz or at lest make it unpassable for tanker traffic and the European economy grinds to a hault chop, chop.

No easy answers here except energy independance. I vote to drill for pertolem wherever the geological strata show a possibility coupled with a crash program to bring on our oil shale reserves. If that was done we would be energy independant. But the tree huggers/eco freaks would be up in arms. And we all know what side of the political spectrum most of them are on. So we'll get lectured to about carbon footprints while they travel from meeting to meeting in their private jets and buying carbon offsets as if that will make them pure.

Sadly I do belive that we have lost our will to do what is needed to survive as a country of stature in the world. Welcome to the new France.
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Re: Iran the british navy and what should be done.
Old 04-02-2007, 01:03 PM   #60
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Re: Iran the british navy and what should be done.

Quote:
Originally Posted by USK Coastie
Sadly I do belive that we have lost our will to do what is needed to survive as a country of stature in the world.
I'm afraid you may be right, but I believe I disagree about the solution.

I think the more noble and viable and American solution is to challenge ourselves
to do what needs to be done to succeed in the new century. Have a grand
challenge to become energy independent in the next decade - yes, like JFK's
challenge to go to the Moon. This might also have the effect of galvanizing
our youth and education system (also like Kennedy's challenge) to produce
more young people with science and engineering training; maybe being dumb
would no longer be considered funny and cool, maybe people would no longer
avoid voting for a Presidential candidate because he seems too smart and that
makes them uncomfortable, and they'd rather vote for the simpleton they
would like to have a beer with.

This challenge might also include a LITTLE sacrifice. Maybe not using one's
vehicle as a penis extender any more, for example (what's up with naming a
car after a blow-job, anyhow ?). Of course, after the 9/11 attacks would
have been a good time for such a challenge. What did the Chimp do instead ?
Challenge us to go out to the mall and car dealers and shop more.




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