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Re: Iran the british navy and what should be done.
Old 04-02-2007, 01:35 PM   #61
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Re: Iran the british navy and what should be done.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RustyShackleford
This challenge might also include a LITTLE sacrifice. Maybe not using one's
vehicle as a penis extender any more, for example (what's up with naming a
car after a blow-job, anyhow ?). Of course, after the 9/11 attacks would
have been a good time for such a challenge. What did the Chimp do instead ?
Challenge us to go out to the mall and car dealers and shop more.
This is the problem. Americans generally don't want to sacrifice, at all. Look at how many people are living above their means because they "deserve" to have nice things. If these people would realize that by living below their means they would be able to live a more fulfilling life in the long run then they might be able to understand the idea of sacrifice. The bozos I work with are convinced they will not be able to retire because Social Security won't be there. I agree, they won't, but then again how many of them are actually doing for themselves and saving?
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Re: Iran the british navy and what should be done.
Old 04-02-2007, 04:31 PM   #62
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Re: Iran the british navy and what should be done.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RustyShackleford
I'm afraid you may be right, but I believe I disagree about the solution.

I think the more noble and viable and American solution is to challenge ourselves
to do what needs to be done to succeed in the new century. Have a grand
challenge to become energy independent in the next decade - yes, like JFK's
challenge to go to the Moon. This might also have the effect of galvanizing
our youth and education system (also like Kennedy's challenge) to produce
more young people with science and engineering training; maybe being dumb
would no longer be considered funny and cool, maybe people would no longer
avoid voting for a Presidential candidate because he seems too smart and that
makes them uncomfortable, and they'd rather vote for the simpleton they
would like to have a beer with.

This challenge might also include a LITTLE sacrifice. Maybe not using one's
vehicle as a penis extender any more, for example (what's up with naming a
car after a blow-job, anyhow ?). Of course, after the 9/11 attacks would
have been a good time for such a challenge. What did the Chimp do instead ?
Challenge us to go out to the mall and car dealers and shop more.
We've heard lots of these goals/challenges in State of the Union speeches (Democrat and Republican) -- it is a device that hasn't worked since Kennedy. I don't think people will mobilize and really get behind something like this unless:
1) They can clearly see the reason for doing it. A good leader with strong communication skills could probably do a good job with energy independence as an issue. The manned lunar exploration program worked primarily due to the competition with the Soviets--Sputnik was freash on our minds, we had puled alongside the Soviets in manned space flight, and we were not going to let them beat us to the moon.

2) The goal needs to be tangible. Man on the moon: You can clearly see whether you've accomplished the goal or not. Parades, a huge source of immediate and deserved national pride. Energy independence: No tangible finish line--at best, some obscure report with lots of footnotes. Not exactly the same as Armstrong standing on the moon with the stars and stripes reflecting in his visor.

3) The objective of the struggle must be one that is manifestly a government responsibility. People won't make sacrifices so that Exxon can succeed. War is a collective responsibility executed by the government, people will sacrifice for it (if they support the cause). The space program never required much tangible public sacrifice, just a small increase in taxes.

I don't think this issue is one that can be successfully addressed with a crash program. We need smart policies that reflect reality (i.e. US citizens will not ride mopeds and will not live as Bangladeshis do). And, we'll likely need verifiable international cooperation--we won't sacrifice just so the Chinese can burn a lot more cheap oil in a dirtier fashion. That's the lesson of the Kyoto treaty attempt.

PS. There's a good article in the WSJ on the ways oil companies prevent their retailers from selling E85 fuel. Most service statons have to sign agreements that make it impractical for them to sell these ethanol-based fuels. It is a fairly transparent play by the oil companies to keep their retailers "on the reservation" and is having the effect of stifling E85's ability to compete wth gasoline. I'd favor a market-based fix (e.g. Walmart or some other non-oil retailer selling E85 at their fuel stations and winning a lot of business, thereby forcing the oil companies to start selling it too). Already there are signs that the state governments will step in to force oil companies to drop the prohibitions unless the oil companies wise up on their own.
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Re: Iran the british navy and what should be done.
Old 04-02-2007, 05:54 PM   #63
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Re: Iran the british navy and what should be done.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lets-retire
This is the problem. Americans generally don't want to sacrifice, at all. Look at how many people are living above their means because they "deserve" to have nice things. If these people would realize that by living below their means they would be able to live a more fulfilling life in the long run then they might be able to understand the idea of sacrifice. The bozos I work with are convinced they will not be able to retire because Social Security won't be there. I agree, they won't, but then again how many of them are actually doing for themselves and saving?
See my post about the drive thrus at the fast food places. Almost 3 dollars a gallon and idiots are sitting for over 30 mins at fast food drive up windows wasting gas to fed their sorry fat arses!

The Iranians are pushing all the wrong buttons however our president has squandered all. The american people will not allow another stupid invasion. however that is what is needed. One side must win.
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Re: Iran the british navy and what should be done.
Old 04-02-2007, 08:30 PM   #64
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Re: Iran the british navy and what should be done.


Some good points, Sam, but we need to do SOMETHING. As Thomas Friedman says,
we are funding both sides of the War on Terror.

Quote:
Originally Posted by samclem
I don't think people will mobilize and really get behind something like this unless:

1) They can clearly see the reason for doing ... Sputnik was fresh on our minds
I think 9/11 is still pretty fresh on our minds.

Quote:
2) The goal needs to be tangible.
"Hey, Crown Prince of Saudi Arabia, take your oil and shove it up your a$$."
Bear in mind we don't completely need to get off oil to make this fantasy a
reality, just the part we're importing, not all that much of it. The other reason
to stop using so much oil - other than our pumping of money into unsavory
governments and global warming - that we're just starting to see, is that as
China's demand for oil increases, we will be competing with them (the one
country that we absolutely cannot just bully around) for any foreign oil supplies.


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Re: Iran the british navy and what should be done.
Old 04-02-2007, 09:56 PM   #65
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Re: Iran the british navy and what should be done.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RustyShackleford
"Hey, Crown Prince of Saudi Arabia, take your oil and shove it up your a$$."
Yes, but the Saudis are our friends and given companies like Halliburton lots of $$. I find it amusing that they felt that they had to move their headquarters to Dubai.
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Re: Iran the british navy and what should be done.
Old 04-02-2007, 11:25 PM   #66
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Re: Iran the british navy and what should be done.

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Originally Posted by bssc
Yes, but the Saudis are our friends ...
No, we're their bitches (kinda the way a heroin-addicted prostitute
is with her pimp), and that's why it'd be nice if some vague flickering
of shame (a shadowy concept to America in the age of reality TV and
talk radio) would prompt us to do something about this oil/energy situation.
If we're all gonna be proud to be Americans, let's do something we can be
proud of (other than being able to kick any other country's army's ass).

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Re: Iran the british navy and what should be done.
Old 04-02-2007, 11:39 PM   #67
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Re: Iran the british navy and what should be done.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RustyShackleford
No, we're their bitches (kinda the way a heroin-addicted prostitute
is with her pimp), and that's why it'd be nice if some vague flickering
of shame (a shadowy concept to America in the age of reality TV and
talk radio) would prompt us to do something about this oil/energy situation.
If we're all gonna be proud to be Americans, let's do something we can be
proud of (other than being able to kick any other country's army's ass).

Really? Do you practice what you preach?
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Re: Iran the british navy and what should be done.
Old 04-03-2007, 01:14 PM   #68
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Re: Iran the british navy and what should be done.

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Originally Posted by Mwsinron
Really? Do you practice what you preach?
I'm not sure what you mean. I try to limit oil usage certainly, by driving a
good mileage car and heating house with a lot of wood.

P.S. I don't really believe in hybrids. A lot of expensive technology. It's
pretty easy to make regular engines that get a lot better mileage, the
gov't just needs to mandate it. Not to mention biodesiel and such.
And those huge banks of lead-acid batteries, yikes, talk about hazardous
waste, although I guess a lot of it gets recycled.

P.P.S. Wood IS renewable energy. I've read a 4-acre woodlot can perpetually
supply the needs of an average-size well-insulated house. It's carbon
neutral, because dead trees are gonna release their carbon into the
atmosphere, where it's by burning or by rotting. And modern wood
heaters are pretty clean burning.

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Re: Iran the british navy and what should be done.
Old 04-04-2007, 09:10 AM   #69
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Re: Iran the british navy and what should be done.

Sounds like it will be over soon. The AP reports that Iran will free the Brits. I wonder what caused this sudden change of heart --- "a gift to the British people".



http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories...MPLATE=DEFAULT
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Re: Iran the british navy and what should be done.
Old 04-04-2007, 09:12 AM   #70
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Re: Iran the british navy and what should be done.

And here's a little "gift" in return...

[img width=750 height=511]http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/usa/bomber/980417a.jpg[/img]
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Re: Iran the british navy and what should be done.
Old 04-04-2007, 11:20 AM   #71
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Re: Iran the british navy and what should be done.

well, I'm pretty sure I'll get blasted for this, but here goes

1) I find Iran as deplorable as the next guy, so I am not defending them

2) Iran lies

3) Bush lies, Blair lies

4) given 2 & 3, is anyone here really certain that the British marines weren't in Iranian territory?

5) even if they were, I think they should be released. But I'm not sure a "high and mighty" stance by the Brits is justified.

6) I find it ironic that there is concern over whether the hostages are being treated in accordance with the Geneva convention. I hope that they are, although the clips of them "admitting guilt" violate it. However, let's remember that it is the US that has been FLAGRANTLY ignoring the convention. Frankly, I don't think anyone should be surprised if the Geneva convention is a thing of the past, thanks to George Bush. If Iran did to those prisoners what the US routinely does to prisoners--imagine the outrage!

7) One reason that it is important that the US stop ignoring international law and torturing prisoners is because of situations like this.

8) let's just hope sanity prevails, they are released, and no more war breaks out. I'd have a better feeling about this if someone sane were in charge of the US.
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Re: Iran the british navy and what should be done.
Old 04-04-2007, 11:29 AM   #72
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Re: Iran the british navy and what should be done.

Bosco, I concur.
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Re: Iran the british navy and what should be done.
Old 04-04-2007, 12:41 PM   #73
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Re: Iran the british navy and what should be done.

Anyone see a leader emerging (sane would be nice) for 2008 that can handle the Iranians, North Koreans, Talibans, etc. --- I don't
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Re: Iran the british navy and what should be done.
Old 04-04-2007, 01:32 PM   #74
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Re: Iran the british navy and what should be done.

Well, Iran stood up to the West for long enough. People will take them seriously.

And, IIRC, the Geneva convention only applies when a state of war exists between the two countries.
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Re: Iran the british navy and what should be done.
Old 04-04-2007, 01:39 PM   #75
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Re: Iran the british navy and what should be done.

Iran's advantage is its strategic position. Location, location, location.
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Re: Iran the british navy and what should be done.
Old 04-04-2007, 02:27 PM   #76
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Re: Iran the british navy and what should be done.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bosco
6) I find it ironic that there is concern over whether the hostages are being treated in accordance with the Geneva convention. I hope that they are, although the clips of them "admitting guilt" violate it. However, let's remember that it is the US that has been FLAGRANTLY ignoring the convention. Frankly, I don't think anyone should be surprised if the Geneva convention is a thing of the past, thanks to George Bush. If Iran did to those prisoners what the US routinely does to prisoners--imagine the outrage!
If Iran held prisoners in the same state as the US they would be commended. However as stated earlier it is common knowledge in survival training that enemy prisoners of war are normally treated worse than the lowest of the holding entity's low. In this situation women. Women in the Islamic world are treated as property and routinely beaten.

It is not common knowledge that the US did NOT sign the most recent Geneva Convention. You know the one that grants enemy prisoner of war status to those fighting out of uniform, kind of like the people being held in Gitmo. Although my definition of torture is far higher than many here. The way I see it if people are subjected to the "torture" during training it really is difficult for me to label it as torture. If you label mental stress as torture then much of what the police do in this country is torture and the Supreme Court has ruled it a valid form of interrogation.
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Re: Iran the british navy and what should be done.
Old 04-04-2007, 04:47 PM   #77
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Re: Iran the british navy and what should be done.

Well Im glad they are headed home.
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Re: Iran the british navy and what should be done.
Old 04-04-2007, 05:08 PM   #78
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Re: Iran the british navy and what should be done.

From NYT online today: "internal _______ struggle pitting radicals, aligned with the president, against more pragmatic officials concerned about the country’s growing isolation. "

Humm... sounds like home.
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Re: Iran the british navy and what should be done.
Old 04-04-2007, 11:24 PM   #79
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Re: Iran the british navy and what should be done.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lets-retire
\
It is not common knowledge that the US did NOT sign the most recent Geneva Convention. You know the one that grants enemy prisoner of war status to those fighting out of uniform, kind of like the people being held in Gitmo. Although my definition of torture is far higher than many here. The way I see it if people are subjected to the "torture" during training it really is difficult for me to label it as torture. If you label mental stress as torture then much of what the police do in this country is torture and the Supreme Court has ruled it a valid form of interrogation.
what has been happening at Gitmo is far more than "mental stress." Frankly, what Bush and the Supreme court say is or isn't torture or is or isn't legal is not my point. My point is this:

if the US is willing to torture (regardless of silly legal definitions to the contrary), then expect the same treatment when US soldiers are captured. And skip the outrage. Similarly, let's not pretend to be some sort of bastion of human rights.
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Re: Iran the british navy and what should be done.
Old 04-05-2007, 12:13 AM   #80
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Re: Iran the british navy and what should be done.

Quote:
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if the US is willing to torture (regardless of silly legal definitions to the contrary), then expect the same treatment when US soldiers are captured.
Most U.S. soldiers expect to be tortured if they are captured. If they don't they are very naive and are in need of further training. Sorry, but mental stress and torture are definitely different things. You hold me upside down and pour large amounts of water on me, I will think I am going to die, but there are no long term physical effects. You take a set of jumper cable hook them to a battery and my nether region, or jam a broom stick in places it ain't supposed to go, there will be physical injuries that will last forever.
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