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Re: Iraq Vote in the House
Old 02-16-2007, 05:48 PM   #21
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Re: Iraq Vote in the House

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Maybe the Sunnis are taken' it to the source. Would be kinda interesting if Iran got a taste of what they have been formenting for 30 years or so.
Yup.. As we have learned sometimes once you start a fire it is tough to contain.
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Re: Iraq Vote in the House
Old 02-16-2007, 06:08 PM   #22
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Re: Iraq Vote in the House

partition the country.

It's going to happen sooner or later. These groups can't live together, won't live together. Might as well do it sooner before more are killed.

Yes, I know, Turkey won't like it. Tough.

Big problem is the southern sector will be Shiite, and likely aligned with, if not a puppet to Iran. Something Bush and his geniuses might have considered before they opened Pandora's box. Too late to unring the bell.
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Re: Iraq Vote in the House
Old 02-16-2007, 06:38 PM   #23
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Re: Iraq Vote in the House

Do folks chirping "partion" know what they are talking about? What they should say is "I support ethnic cleansing." The limited amont of ethnic partitioning/forced displacement/bloodshed going on in Baghdad today among the most tragic aspect of the war--so these people think it should be the official policy? Not just fr Baghdad, but everywhere in the country. And what makes anyone think the violence will stop once the partition takes place--they'll just be pseudo states with designs on the resources of each other and with scores to settle. Creating two new theocracies and a Kurdish state on Turkey's border instead of one (certainly imperfect) representative republic is not an improvement, it is a disaster.

Is there any price to be paid by those politicians who are voting to run? I don't think it is likely If the present course proves effective (despite the best efforts of some to undermine all key aspects of it), I think these folsk will be able to jump back and claim they always supported a good plan. If Iraq ends in an all out ethnic bloodbath (and it is NOT today--it is not anything close to many exampes history provides), these politicians will blame President Bush.

As incredible and unpalatable as it sounds, I think there's reason to suspect some people inside the beltway want a failure in Iraq, and are doing what they can to achieve it. I hope I'm wrong on this. Read up on Murtha's "slow bleed" plan--it's amazing.
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Re: Iraq Vote in the House
Old 02-16-2007, 06:46 PM   #24
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Re: Iraq Vote in the House

Any of the war supporters have a plan? Other than a "troop surge," that is.

To reiterate sgeeee, what would make us a "winner" in this war?

What event or events would mean a defeat? Or do we keep drawing the line farther and farther out to ensure that we never "lose?"
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Re: Iraq Vote in the House
Old 02-16-2007, 07:01 PM   #25
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Re: Iraq Vote in the House

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Originally Posted by eridanus
Any of the war supporters have a plan? Other than a "troop surge," that is.
Yeah-- let's assign a few Rangers/SF to help with the usual troop-training & civic-affairs duties. Contract some more out to Blackwater et al. And then let's send everybody else home.

While we're at it, let's do the same in Afghanistan. Let the Arab League decide how they want to handle the port visits and the basing rights.

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To reiterate sgeeee, what would make us a "winner" in this war?
"Sovereignty's been restored to Iraq-- yippee! Remember to vote early, vote often, and vote Republican!!"

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Originally Posted by eridanus
What event or events would mean a defeat? Or do we keep drawing the line farther and farther out to ensure that we never "lose?"
I don't think that prolonging the status quo is going to give us many opportunities to make good things happen.

And just wait until the contractors from the Mexico fence project submit their proposal for another fence along the Syrian border...
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Re: Iraq Vote in the House
Old 02-16-2007, 07:13 PM   #26
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Re: Iraq Vote in the House

I don't label myself a "war supporter," but somebody that believes we should continue to support Iraqis who are trying to build a workable government and country. And you are right, the "surge" isn't a plan--did any body say it was?

On a fundamental level, do you think it makes sense for US and Iraqi government troops to continue to hold/police the areas they have cleared of extremists and militias, or should these neighborhoods/districts be left to fend for themselves and allow the extremists to repopulate them? Do you believe common Iraqis will ever view the government as legitimate and truly important if the militias are allowed to flood back after they've been driven out? Well, providing ongoing security in these neighborhoods while we continue to train the Iraqis takes more trops than we have today in Iraq. That's what the troop increase is about. That's what is being tried now. It might work--or we might find that we need to make further adjustments. War (and politics) are not precise sciences. They involve an adapting opponent trying to counter each move and get an advantage. Sometimes it takes a lot of perseverence.

The troops are only one part of the plan. They facilitate the more fundamental and important steps--building the capabilities and crediblity of the Iraqi government and Iraqi civil society.

Where's the plan for stability in Iraq from those who believe we should quit. That's where the deafening silence is. Here's The Plan from the other side as best as I can tell: "It is impossible!! Nothing has been done right, or can ever be done right. Quagmire! It is all Bush's fault! Let's pull out--we've got an election to win!"
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Re: Iraq Vote in the House
Old 02-16-2007, 07:23 PM   #27
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Re: Iraq Vote in the House

We 'won' when we overturned the Sadam regime. Then we helped the country put together a constitution and hold a couple elections. Job finished IMHO. The rest is THEIR problem.

We are not going to be able to solve the problems between the various segments of the population. Our presence serves no purpose. The Kurds may ask us to camp in their yard while the folks down south sort it out, that would be OK for a while.

If 'winning' is getting the Sunni and Shia to make nice before we leave then we will be there until the next ice age. This is a problem only they can solve, only they can tamp down the militias. So long as we are there they will not come to terms and we will be blamed by all sides. It is a no-win situation.

I agree that there will be a lot of refugees flowing to Iran, Syria and Saudi Arabia during this process. Innocents will die just as they are dieing now. As this becomes a problem these countries have the choice of also joining the fray or bringing the parties to the table.
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Re: Iraq Vote in the House
Old 02-16-2007, 07:46 PM   #28
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Re: Iraq Vote in the House

Quote:
Originally Posted by samclem
Do folks chirping "partion" know what they are talking about? What they should say is "I support ethnic cleansing." The limited amont of ethnic partitioning/forced displacement/bloodshed going on in Baghdad today among the most tragic aspect of the war--so these people think it should be the official policy? Not just fr Baghdad, but everywhere in the country. And what makes anyone think the violence will stop once the partition takes place--they'll just be pseudo states with designs on the resources of each other and with scores to settle. Creating two new theocracies and a Kurdish state on Turkey's border instead of one (certainly imperfect) representative republic is not an improvement, it is a disaster.
actually, I was chirping "partition" but who's checking....

Let me see....3 partitions....the point of which will be to seperate Shiite, Sunni, and Kurds, will result in "ethnic cleansing"? By separating them, they have more opportunities to kill each other? I'd say they are doing a pretty credible job doing that right now. I'm sure there will still be violence, but how will separating them create more opportunities for violence? There was violence when India and Pakistan were partitioned, true. But eventually it came to an end, or at least to a tolerable level. The way things are now in Iraq, it never will.

Creating 3 states vying for resources will end terrorism in the area. If violence is propogated by a government, then it's not terrorism, it's war. War is ok, apparantly. This is the problem the Palistinians have. Since they have no state, anything they do is terrorism. Anything the Israelis do is anti-terrorist so it's ok. So by creating 3 states, we could end terrorism in the region.

While I am being facetious, this is only partly the case. 3 partitions, with borders. It provides more structure to the fighting. The citizens of each region have an identity, and their governmental agencies are controlled by their own sect. They are more willing to step out and attempt to put a stop to intruders trying to bring on chaos in their region. Yes, then the different regions have to fight over the oil wells. ( What barbarians! Going to war over oil!) But presumably that is worked out in the partitioning agreement, and what remains are skirmishes ala India and Pakistan.

The argument that partition will increase violence is, I think, incorrect. For it to work would require buy-in from the parties, and probably from Iran on at least a tacit level as well. But allowing a full-on civil war to continue, and to keep parking troops in the middle of it seems the worst of all worlds.

I think it's a mess, and I don't think there is a clean solution. I think it's a forseeable mess, and think there is no excuse for the US blundering into it (hey, I didn't vote for the cowboy...). But that's in the past. What needs to happen now is to find the least harmful way. I used to think "we broke it, we bought it." But now I'm not convinced it can be fixed, so let's find the least damaging way out for everyone--US and Iraqis.

What's your plan? Make it the 51st state?
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Re: Iraq Vote in the House
Old 02-16-2007, 07:50 PM   #29
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Re: Iraq Vote in the House

I remember the Tet Offensive. We were stationed in the Philippines and a lot of my friends whose fathers were in Vietnam were with us there. Westmoreland said that we had won the war and that it was OK for all the wives to come visit during Tet. I remember several of my friends moms talking about how they were trapped inside their hotel and put their bed matresses up against the window so that people couldn't fire in.

If Saddam was good enough for Reagan, he should be good enough for Bush. See http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB82/ with an overview and original documents.

He could have been another Hirohito but we will never know.
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Re: Iraq Vote in the House
Old 02-16-2007, 08:05 PM   #30
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Re: Iraq Vote in the House

Quote:
Originally Posted by bosco
actually, I was chirping "partition" but who's checking....

Let me see....3 partitions....the point of which will be to seperate Shiite, Sunni, and Kurds, will result in "ethnic cleansing"?
Well, since we are being picky, you want 2 "partitions", not three (I assume) so that we end up with three (not four) new states, right? The "partition" is the dividing line.

The ethnic cleansing I'm referring to is in Baghdad. Traditionally mixed neighborhoods are being cleansed of the "other" religion (Shia or Sunni) depending on which militia (aka "group of thugs") shows up with guns. These people have lived together in peace for decades, but now are being forced into homogenous enclaves. This is one thing the US troop increase may allow us to stop. Apparently, the advocates of "partitioning" believe this ethnic cleansing is a good thing for Baghdad, and should be the policy natonwide. (The issue is actualy biggest in Baghdad, though, since it is the most ethnically mixed city in the country.)
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Re: Iraq Vote in the House
Old 02-16-2007, 08:40 PM   #31
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Re: Iraq Vote in the House

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Originally Posted by Laurence
While many have derided this as a meaningless vote, it feels like it means something to me, like this represents a gathering of momentum.
It's not meaningless, but it is cowardly.

Lets take a vote on a non-binding resolution to distance ourselves from a gravely unpopular war (which most voted for when it seemed popular, before they voted against) but take absolutely no responsibility for either winning, or ending, the conflict. Cowardly. And shameful.

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Re: Iraq Vote in the House
Old 02-16-2007, 09:28 PM   #32
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Re: Iraq Vote in the House
Old 02-17-2007, 11:48 AM   #33
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Re: Iraq Vote in the House

I can not really see how we (as a nation) can separate the war from the warrior. If the Washington politicians do not support the war effort, they do not really support the troops that they agreed to send to participate in that same conflict.
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Re: Iraq Vote in the House
Old 02-17-2007, 12:09 PM   #34
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Re: Iraq Vote in the House

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I can not really see how we (as a nation) can separate the war from the warrior. If the Washington politicians do not support the war effort, they do not really support the troops that they agreed to send to the war.
The war seems to have been fought in a very Dilbertesque manner. The politicians and military staff have given the troops on the ground an objective but have never really supported the military with the troops or equipment necessary to carry out their missing. Look at the inability of the military to provide something as basic as Humvee armor. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...021101345.html
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Re: Iraq Vote in the House
Old 02-17-2007, 12:23 PM   #35
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Re: Iraq Vote in the House

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Re: Iraq Vote in the House
Old 02-17-2007, 01:08 PM   #36
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Re: Iraq Vote in the House

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Originally Posted by samclem
Did anybody hear that Iraq prodced more wheat last year than any time in the nation's history?
What is your source for this statement? I find it very hard to swallow. (no pun intended)
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Re: Iraq Vote in the House
Old 02-17-2007, 03:32 PM   #37
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Re: Iraq Vote in the House

I heard the snippet on the radio a few weeks ago, but can't find any figures for nationwide 2006 Iraqi wheat production to back it up.

There was this bit concerning one of Iraq's wheat-producing provinces. They set a record last year.

********************************
(Info below comes fromthe MS Word document available at this page: http://agwired.com/?p=2842 )

"(Wassit Province, Iraq) -- The southern Iraqi Province of Wassit shipped more than 110,000 tons of wheat and 90,000 tons of barley to state silos this past harvest.
This is a record yield for the province and four times higher than the 2005-crop seasonís 48,000 tons combined. . . . "

" . . . Countrywide, Iraq produced 1.2 million tons of wheat and 144,000 tons of barley. Thatís good, but the record harvest still falls far short of domestic consumption demand which is estimated at 4 million tons each year."

************************************************** ***
Hopes for next year:
" The Ministry of Agriculture is working to boost the volume of wheat produced to 2.4 million tons in 2007.

The ministryís undersecretary, Subhi al-Jumaili, said measures were taken to help farmers fertilize, cultivate, harvest and ship the produce to state silos in the summer of 2007.

Officials say the ministryís forecast is attainable but they fear the upsurge in violence might dampen hopes of a bumper harvest.


. . . In the more than 30 years of former President Saddam Husseinís rule domestic wheat yields rarely hit two million tons. "
http://www.iraqupdates.com/p_articles.php/article/12495

*************************************
For the hard-core agrophile, here's a fact sheet on steps being taken by USAID to help Iraqis improve their agricultural sector.
http://www.usaid.gov/iraq/updates/ju...s29_060206.pdf

At any rate, Iraq's agriculture sector does not appear to be in the toilet. That's important, because it is the second biggest sector of their economy and an inportant force for social stability, since it provides a large employent base. BTW--oil production is also not as crappy as many reports would imply--it is now at 80% of pre-war levels (and nobody is siphoning off the proceeds to bribe UN officials or the Russians and French).
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Re: Iraq Vote in the House
Old 02-17-2007, 03:43 PM   #38
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Re: Iraq Vote in the House

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" . . . Countrywide, Iraq produced 1.2 million tons of wheat and 144,000 tons of barley. Thatís good, but the record harvest still falls far short of domestic consumption demand which is estimated at 4 million tons each year."

*************************************************
Damn, somebody over there has been spending time on this board.

(Time to start stock-piling.)
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Re: Iraq Vote in the House
Old 02-17-2007, 10:09 PM   #39
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Re: Iraq Vote in the House

historic or momentum building or not - i hear the brakes screaching at any meaningful action there is not yet enough votes to do something w/ some teeth in it -

the congressfolk need another butt kicking in the next election...
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Re: Iraq Vote in the House
Old 02-17-2007, 10:14 PM   #40
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Re: Iraq Vote in the House

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historic or momentum building or not - i hear the brakes screaching at any meaningful action there is not yet enough votes to do something w/ some teeth in it -

the congressfolk need another butt kicking in the next election...

I try not to underestimate the fickleness of the American voter, so I realize that anything is possible in the next Senate/congressional election over one and a half years from now. Still . . . it sure seems like Republicans siding with this administration on this invasion/ocupation are just asking for another butt kicking.
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